MEO RP/Tales of Lore

[Eonwë]

After reflecting a bit on Estarion's return and recent story events, I've added a bit to my last post. Nothing I added should give problems with Varda's post that came right after mine, though.

Auros' stance in the original version *might've* indicated a bit of mistrust of Estarion's sudden reappearance (those seem to be bad in our story so far, hehe), but I took it a bit further to actually indicate a touch of suspicion. Estarion might end up on Mirkwood's Most Wanted if he's not careful :}

[Shelob]

Thanks for that Eonwe!
I was pondering on how best to reply to your and Varda's posts and this gave me just what I needed.

I am aware that in my post I have completely (or so it might seem) any potential presence of sentries. In fact, story wise, Estarion is not at all aware of them.

As for reaching the forest but a few hours after the group did, as I have said in earlier posts, I prefer running and can keep up with horses fairly well. I also set off during the night, which gave me a bit of a headstart.
As for not being used to horses, I draw upon very few sources, one being that I cannot recall the Elves using them before Oromë's arrival, the others being that they lack in presence, therefore (I hope) giving me some liberties in how I shape the Avari (or at least myself) in this story.

[Eonwë]

Elves didn't go very far from the Waters of Awakening before Oromë came among them either.

The Noldor of the First Age, just coming out of Aman, would probably have the least need for horses (their stay in Aman making them "mightier" than the Elves of Middle-Earth) yet cavalry was employed by the Noldor during the Wars of Beleriand, and it doesn't seem horses as transportation outside of war was foreign to them either. Even Eol used horses to go great distances (He rode to feasts in Nogrod when invited, and also rode to pursue Aredhel and Maeglin).

Barring a reasonable example, the idea any elf could match both the speed and stamina of a horse such that they could cover the same distance on an open plain in approximately the same time seems a stretch to me. In a dense wooded area, the Elf perhaps might have the greater maneuverability and that might give an elf the advantage, but an open plain? If that were the case, horses would be at best redundant and at worst useless.

[Shelob]

Is there any indication of Elves using horses before coming to Aman? If so, I would be more than willing to change my story, otherwise, I think there is limit to anything we do, as long as it stays reasonable within Tolkien's atmosphere.
I agree that what I am saying is dancing around the border of those limits, but considering everything else that happens and is doable, and we know such things for facts. In short, I think it is reasonable enough.

Also, as you have admitted, you were slowed down by the pony, and though their top speed is certainly beyond the limits of mortal men, both in sheer speed as in stamina, but would it be beyond those of an elf?

[Eonwë]

Considering how opposed Eol was to the Noldor even being in Beleriand, I doubt he got his horsemanship from them. We can be certain he was never in Aman. Legolas even did not shirk the use of a horse in order to keep up with Aragorn, though he seemed to take the pace and distance of the hunt on foot the easiest.

I've already been considering whether an Elf could match the speed/stamina of a pony. My Atlas of Middle-Earth estimates Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas (as well as the Uruk-Hai they were chasing) going 3.0 mph and puts travel by pony (I suppose the primary example being between the Barrow Downs and Bree) as 3.4 mph jogging (I believe I posted this already in an earlier post though, so pardon if this is redundant). I estimated us pushing at about 4.5 mph from Erebor to Mirkwood earlier in this thread.

Considering the above and assuming Ms. Fonstad's numbers in her Atlas to be a fairly accurate measure of ability and not just of the travelling of these particular groups, I suppose it's theoretically possible for an Elf to keep pace roughly with a jogging pony for some distance (so let's say an Elf could keep comfortable even at a ~3.5 mph pace for a reasonable distance). The question would be how far/how long before it starts to wear on the elf. I'm not sure I'd say an Elf could keep up with a pony at full gallop for long if at all(which I estimated for simplicity at 5-6 mph earlier in the thread, but could be faster since I don't have an actual number for top speed of ponies).

Leaving Erebor before we did would at least give some distance between the group and Estarion and explain why, when looking back toward Erebor, the group would not see Estarion across the plain (factor in how early and all that stuff). Looks like Estarion met the other Avari to the northwest of Erebor, bringing him at least somewhat closer to Mirkwood (particularly if it's more west than north), so that could help shorten his travel time/distance, at least to Mirkwood. Travel time inside of Mirkwood would have to be considered (the question then becomes how fast an elf could reasonably traverse Mirkwood on foot while avoiding spiders :}).

There's also the matter of logistics. The slowest pace/least endurance is going to set the pace of the group. Unless you're the Vala Nornorë, it would be the guy on foot :} Cavalry typically doesn't race to the field of battle faster than the footmen can go and still have strength to fight (once they reach the field of battle, it's a different matter). While the others will retain some measure of strength and could if necessary dismount and fight, Estarion, in the event of having run alongside the horses/pony, would be more worn than the rest of the group.

Speaking of horses and speeds, I was looking back over some stuff in LotR fairly recently and came across the description of Shadowfax's race to Minas Tirith. Seems that no, despite what I initially thought, he wasn't going as fast as he could :} Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Oh, to clarify something I said a couple of posts back,..
"Auros' stance in the original version *might've* indicated a bit of mistrust of Estarion's sudden reappearance..."

I meant that as "it could be read that way, but it's not intended in the writing." Mostly that part was just Auros' usual self, plus him standing prepared for the sparring. The suspicion comes as he's thinking to himself.

Also, a quick question Menel. You wrote:
"For a short time a wisp of a cloud passed of his face, but quickly he returned it to normal again. "
Was that about Auros or Estarion? I ask because a cloud was mentioned in my post, but it was passing over the moon :} It looks like it's about Estarion, but I wanted to be sure.

I'll leave it there for now.

[Shelob]

I will start with answering your last question:
Yes, the cloud does refer to Estarion, though most likely, "shadow" would have been a better term. It's meant to be a shadow of doubt and worry, and I shall change it accordingly as soon as I finish writing this post
I won't elaborate on it more than that, as I believe it will be revealed in due time and at this time, neither of us knows clearly what the other is thinking, which I prefer as it leaves much to interpretation and therefore, in my opinion, will add to good roleplay.
This, also, is indicative for Estarion's thoughts on Auros' stance, and considering the circumstances, having disappeared twice now, the absence or silence of sentries, and what happened in the meeting between Estarion and his kin, may all have contributed to Estarion's train of thought.
I also factored in the attack which happened in my absence, which I thought might be the reason why Auros' stance was different, if only slightly, from before.

As for the rest, you make some very good points, which I will not deny. It does seem far stretched that anyone could keep up with galloping horses for long, but even horses cannot gallop the entire way along the plains from Erebor to Mirkwood.
However, I've already taken into consideration your arguments about speed and endurance, which is why I accepted the horse on the trip to Erebor.

Also, due to an early start, and a late arrival, my story seems more plausible even by your own estimation. You said you arrived (or thought it anyways) a couple hours earlier, which would time my arrival about 1 or 2 hours after yours.
So, unless you pushed the pony as hard as possible, which would mean it would be completely exhausted on arrival in Mirkwood, and of which I might add, there was no indication, I think that for the moment, I will let my story stand.
However, I am taking your arguments into good consideration and will keep it in mind in any further posts.

[Eonwë]

Well that's good it sounds plausible, because I was exploring under what conditions it would be plausible :} As you said in your last post and I've said several times before, as long as it stays reasonable within Tolkien's world we're fine. If we can reason it out such that it makes sense in Tolkien's world, we're good :}

I believe I estimated the arrival of Auros, Fainan, Calion, and Frali at approx 4-5pm, basically early enough before sunset for there to be daylight. By the time Estarion finds Auros exercising in the clearing, it's nighttime. He'd come to the clearing as the sun was fully setting, so I suppose if we gave a time it'd be approximately 6:30-7:00 pm. Auros could've gone through his forms a few times before Estarion arrived. The moon was shining into the clearing before the cloud went in front of it, so it could've been maybe an hour or two after Auros got there, say 8-9pm, roughly 4-5 hours after Auros and the group arrived in Mirkwood.

Aye, Auros did not push the animals hard speedwise (I believe when we were discussing the trip from Erebor to Mirkwood in this thread I estimated us at approx 4.5mph from Erebor to Mirkwood so the pony would not be hard pressed to keep up, though still faster than "jogging"), but the group did make full use of daylight. I attempted to account in my estimations well enough for rest breaks etc. that would be necessary.

[Varda]

Maecheneb is a compound of Sindarin words for sharp-eyed.
Hithceleb is mist-silver.
Taurdin is forest-watcher, with -tirn lenited to -dirn as it is in the books.

[Eonwë]

I just posted my next piece. Yes, I realize at this point it's past tense. I didn't go into the sparring match (which would've brought it into the present) because I was curious how you wanted to do this Menel. Namely:

1.) we could just gloss over it and move on, giving our standard post types of perspectives of the characters, and deciding as writers that the actual sparring is inconsequential,

or

2.) you and I could try to put our heads and styles together for a joint post, which would involve us getting together on AIM, perhaps during or after a meeting or two (I think a live chat would be more productive in this case), to put together a satisfying bout/post which one of us would then post (coin flip? :}) once we have the wording hammered out, and instead of simply "Auros" or "Estarion" at the top it would have both.


We wouldn't want to make a habit out of option 2 (there are of course risks and dangers in doing this, such as one or both writers may not be satisfied with the end result, may not feel like they had an appropriate level of input, etc), but I don't think a rare few of those types for flavoring when appropriate would hurt (read: one or two in the 5 chapters we've had wouldn't be too much, but 5 in one chapter would under most cases be pushing it). Maybe a "special collaboration" would be a good way to look at it.

I think this situation lends itself to option 2, as I wouldn't try to shoehorn the situation into it if it didn't. It's not something I suggest or attempt lightly, hehe. I think it could offer a more satisfying coverage of the sparring session in this case, though.

Let me know what you think. Of course, we do not have to go with option 2, or even option 1 if you have an option 3 :}

[Shelob]

I think it's definitely possible to gloss it over, unless you had some fancy and weird moves on your mind during the sparring?

However, also considering the end of your last post, I think story-technically, it would actually sound a lot better to let the sparring match continue and be written out.
Your suggestion of a joint-post sounds great to me, as it won't need half a thousand posts to and fro of parrying, dodging, countering, feinting, etc.
I do suppose that whoever has the most knowledge on medieval combat will have the most "input", but among friends, I don't think that is a problem at all. Besides, I can always edit your message or just delete it *wink wink*.

[Eonwë]

Just wanted to let you know Menel and I are workin on our joint post :} As soon as we're both satisfied with it, it'll go up :}

[Shelob]

Just to give everyone an update, so they won't wonder what's happening, Eonwë and I decided that he was to write the first draft, seeing as his knowledge about melee combat is much better than mine
He sent me his part somewhere last week, and I apologize for taking a bit long replying, but at long last I found the inspiration I needed.

I figure it won't take much longer now, but until then, hang onto the edge of your seats, because this post will blow you away *grin*

[Eonwë]

Menel and I have come to agreement on our joint post, and as such it is now up for all to read. Enjoy :}

[Eonwë]

Heya all.

I think it'd be a good idea if we all got together next Sunday after the meeting for brainstorming and discussion of the RP. We did some this week, but not everyone was there, including myself for half of it due to AIM being a pain. I hope we all can be there next week :}

[Shelob]

As you noticed, I wasn't here again this week. I had a game night with some RL friends, so couldn't make it. Next week I'll have the regular sunday raid probably, though I can likely come in at 5:30'ish EST / 4:30'ish CST.