Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Mar 16, 2005 1:27:27 GMT -5
I had the same problem and it is not the first time. Usually it is solved during some hours.
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Mar 3, 2005 1:10:59 GMT -5
I still find it worth the cash
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 26, 2005 5:21:37 GMT -5
Luckily, it's a very simple matter to learn how to let the Hunter pull properly. Below is the same generic instance situation but with revised positioning to let the Hunter maximize safety for the entire group.
Situation B
I didn't go too fast for you, did I?
The Hunter can clearly see the two primary targets and he does not doubt that aggravating one will annoy the other equally. He can see the three enemies beyond them with the one walking around (minor risk) but with good timing he can be sure that the first two foes are pulled while the walker is at a maximum distance from them just to be safe. He's been standing there for a few seconds mulling over his options and keeping an eye on his mini-map for patrols (and, as above, there are none). He can also see the position of his teammates and knows that the path back to them is clear because of his tracking abilities. He communicates to the team how the battle will start, how many foes will be incoming, and which one to attack (most often signaled with the unmistakable Hunter's Mark ability). The Hunter then tags an enemy and returns to his group inside the Perfect Zone of Ultimate Safety whereupon everyone wails on the foes until they are defeated.
Under normal circumstances, i.e. the number of enemies actually pulled is the number intended by the puller, neither scenario out performs the other. The Mage is still going to use Polymorph on the extra enemy, it doesn't matter who pulls or from what distance. In fact, our old friend, The Two Main Arguments Against Hunters Pulling: lack of aggro control and extra mana use, come into play in both. I will debunk those below.
For now, let us concentrate on the worst case scenario for Situations A and B. Instead of pulling the initial two enemies, due to some freak occurence, all five are pulled. In Situation B, only the Hunter is at risk. He can clearly notice all enemies following him within a second of taking his initial shot. He can Feign Death and have the enemies go right back where they were so he can try again. No one dies. Ah, but I said this was a worst case scenario, did I not? Fine. The Hunter can activate Feign Death, but it fails. What then? Well, he dies while the team -- the precious casters -- are untouched and out of harm's way because they are in the Ultimate Zone of Perfect Safety.
In Situation A, whether the Hunter or the Warrior pulls, everyone is going to die except probably the Hunter who is ironically made safer by the chaos. With multiple targets buzzing around and teammates desperately attacking anything they can in a (hopeless) bid to get out alive, it is more likely that the Hunter will only have one or two targets on him. So if an early Feign Death fails, he will have just enough time to attempt it again, thus saving his life while his teammates drop like flies because only the Hunter is equipped with abilities to survive catastrophically bad pulls.
Which would you prefer as a Warrior, Mage, Priest, Shaman, Druid, Warlock, or Rogue? Hm? I know the Hunter's answer is Situation B and I suspect yours is as well.
The advantage of Situation A, or so the more stubborn Warriors will tell us, is that the extra aggro is placed upon their shoulders and that is preferable. They don't seem to consider the aggro and mana loss generated by Polymorph to count. I suppose this is because a Priest can always raise a fallen teammate after the battle and it's the Priest who allegedly bears the added risk of extra aggro when a Hunter pulls.
In Situation B, the aggro is placed upon the shoulders of the Hunter. Perhaps that is why Blizzard wisely provided the Hunter with three independent and redundant systems for negating his aggro and then applied an emergency failsafe in case the player experienced an incredible stroke of bad luck. Here they are in no particular order.
Aggro Countermeasure #1: The Pet. Every pet learns a very effective taunt. Every Hunter learns early on when attempting to lose aggro that his pet is his best friend. Even after gaining the maximum amount of aggro possible -- a critical hit with Aimed Shot (four to six times normal damage) followed by critical Auto Shot (double to triple damage) as well as a Concussive Shot (no damage, but extra aggro generating) -- this ability will take the enemy off of the Hunter within two taunts. Since no Hunter who is trying to pull as few foes as possible as quickly possible as painlessly as possible for a group in an elite dungeon is ever going to use Aimed Shot followed by Concussive shot, the pet should get aggro from the Hunter to itself with a single taunt. The pet is a more preferable target than the Hunter (though less desirable than the Warrior) because it has equal to double the Armor of its Hunter, effectively has "free" HP that puts no one at risk, and has its own ability to reduce aggro, Cower, though in most cases simply turning off the Pet's taunt is sufficient. As the Warrior has been pounding the foe this whole time, he is next in line.
Aggro Countermeasure #2: Disengage. This ability significantly reduces a target enemy's aggro toward a Hunter and causes the foe to immediately target someone else. If the Warrior has hit the monster, he's got aggro.
Aggro Countermeasure #3: Feign Death. This ability negates all aggro against the Hunter from all foes. If the Warrior has hit the enemy, he has aggro.
Now, true, a Pet's taunt, Disengage, and Feign Death can all be resisted. But the likelihood that all three will be resisted in a row is mathematically insignificant. And here's the kicker. The Hunter doesn't even need one of these to work. Using these abilities is basically a courtesy to Warriors to make their job that much easier. And to that end only one of the three abilities has to work and they all have very short timers anyway.
Still, Blizzard gave Hunters a last ditch failsafe: Leather and (eventually) Mail armor. At no point will this allow us to tank for extended periods of time, but it does give us enough defense to take a few hits without much risk or needing a series of Priest-endangering heals while the Warrior gets aggro.
The idea that Hunters pulling leads to a complete break down in aggro control is a myth. With a Hunter's aggro reducing and negating abilities and smart "low aggro" pulling techniques, a Warrior has to do little more than hit his Auto-Attack button to get an enemy's attention. Since aggro control is not a real problem, Priests do not have to continually heal a less armored teammate, so they do not waste their mana or generate extra aggro to themselves, so the Warrior's job is not made more difficult by letting the Hunter pull.
In short, when a Hunter is pulling properly with his teammates in the Perfect Zone of Ultimate Safety, the number of bad pulls is reduced. When bad pulls do occur, only the Hunter is at risk and this is preferred to all other bad pull scenarios because only the Hunter is equipped with the abilities to survive them. The safety of the team is guaranteed for 100% of all pulls -- good, bad, or Biblical. It's called The Perfect Zone of Ultimate Safety for a reason. Downtime is reduced over all and being "wiped" is a thing of the past.
Warriors, I value your addition to a team dynamic. But I don't try to play the main tank, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to play the main puller. There are situations where setting up the Ultimate Zone of Perfect Safety will be impossible. In those situations, good sir, please pull to your heart's content. But when you are given the choice between potentially unsafe pulls and guaranteed safe pulls with the only difference between them being that you stand in a slightly different position, I cannot understand why so many of you insist on engaging in the former.
Hunters, don't be afraid of communicating with your teams. You are going to meet some stubborn players who will treat you as a second class addition to their team. They're going to act like you should be thankful that they let you join because you "don't offer anything". You can offer them what no other class can: The Ultimate Zone of Perfect Safety. If you can convince your team to let you pull just a couple times while they wait at a minimum safe distance, you will show them that Hunters are the way and the light of pulling. If a Hunter pulls properly, there is absolutely no reason to ever have a bad pull that will endanger the lives of your teammates.
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 26, 2005 5:21:18 GMT -5
Yet a part about hunter-class worth to know. Had to cut it in two too ----------------------------------------------------------------- Pulling My Leg
Or The Perfect Zone of Ultimate Safety and You
There is concern among high level, or "end game" Hunters in World of Warcraft. Many of the quests available at that point are Elite quests. These are quests filled with incredibly durable enemies that require a (usually) full group that is both organized and experienced if victory is to be assured. Many players, Hunters or otherwise, are of the opinion that Hunters have no defined role in WoW. Therefore, since groups have limited space, the Hunter suffers a lack of group invites in the end game. He is seen as little more than "filler" for the last spot if no other "necessary" class can be found. This is ignorance. Hunters were meant to be pullers. A Hunter pulling properly can guarantee the safety of his teammates 100% of the time. That Hunters also have high sustained damage per second (DPS) and several options for crowd control especially useful in protecting casters is simply bonuses to an already excellent class.
First let us define a "pull." Pulling is a common strategy in MMO games. It is the practice of separating groups of enemies into manageable chunks most often consisting of one or two specific foes so that the players are not overwhelmed. There is a myth that the Warrior should pull due to "aggro management". The argument is this: Everyone's job is easier if the Warrior has all of the aggro from the moment the battle begins. The tank doesn't have to worry about getting aggro; the healer doesn't have to expend extra mana to heal a non-tank; more heals means more difficult to maintain aggro control; and should additional enemies (adds) come as a result of the pull they will all hate the tank and it is preferred that he should take the hits over anyone else because he will have far more armor than anyone else.
Indeed, this makes a fair bit of sense. Mentioning that Hunters should be pulling in instances will always meet with resistance, primarily from Warriors who will use some variation of one or more of the above as their reasoning. This idea arose, most likely, from the fact that Hunters were implemented very late in the game's beta process. Most beta players learned to do "well enough" without the Hunter's bag of pulling tricks. The most common strategy for a Warrior to pull relies on a Mage's Polymorph spell to turn additional aggressive foes into harmless sheep. This, by the way, is the first clue that Warriors should not be pulling: it takes a Warrior and a Mage and even then they can only approximate the safety afforded by a Hunter pulling. Yet even this approximate safety comes at a price. The Polymorph spell can wear off -- either through a timer or if the enemy is accidentally damaged in the chaos -- and the first thing he will do is run straight to the practically defenseless Mage. True, the Mage can fire off another Polymorph spell, but doesn't that sound like "expending extra mana" and a lack of aggro control? The very same reasons Hunters aren't supposed to pull? That's clue number two: the "problems" with Hunters pulling apply to Warriors pulling as well.
Another hint that the Warrior/Mage pull isn't all it's cracked up to be comes from another MMO, Final Fantasy XI. One of the classes, Ranger, is the default puller. If you have a Ranger in your team, there's no question about it, he is your puller. Anyone in a Ranger's group who insists that the Ranger does not pull is usually laughed at. Do you know why? The Ranger has fast, long range attacks, can track foes, and he has means to reduce his aggro. He has all the tools to find the safest way to engage an enemy, lead it back to his teammates, and transfer aggro to the tank. Gee, my Hunter has fast, long range attacks, can track foes, and has means to reduce aggro. Yet the mere suggestion that a Hunter should pull is a source of debate -- even among Hunters!
The Warrior/Mage pulling strategy, however cumbersome, was (and still is) effective enough that once the Hunter was introduced and his Talents were finally implemented, few players saw any reason to invite Hunters. "They can pull, huh?" the Warriors said. "Well so can I." Yes, if you have an attentive Mage friend who doesn't mind needlessly putting his life on the line. So the idea that Hunters aren't necessary began in beta. It began in ignorance. None of the "uber" players grew up learning how the Hunter can best be put to use to the team. These players, who "obviously" must know what they're talking about because they've been in the game so long, start mentioning, probably off-handedly, that they don't need Hunters. Then it gets parroted by guild and party mates and ends up on forums. Before you know it, it has become "fact" that Hunters should not pull. The effectiveness of this viral meme has caused many Hunters themselves to believe it.
The myth that Hunters should not pull is then perpetuated by itself. The Hunter, leveling up in an environment where the casual ignorance of others makes him lucky to get into any late game group, is unlikely to raise a fuss when his question "Should I pull?" is shot down by every other member of a group (if he even bothers to ask any more). Many Hunters are simply not given the opportunity to learn how best to put their abilities to use toward pulling for a group. So when that rare opportunity to pull happens, the Hunter -- probably mid- to high-level at this point -- has the relative experience of a level 10 - 15 player with regard to his primary role. Imagine, if you will, a Priest who hasn't learned a healing spell in 20 levels or a Warrior who only uses the Auto-Attack power. How effective would they be? That is what these other players have unknowingly turned many Hunters into. When a bad pull happens, it becomes the Hunter's fault and it reinforces the myth that Hunters should not be pullers. Thus it becomes increasingly less likely that future Hunters will be given the opportunities to learn their roles and the cycle continues. The myth becomes "true".
The Hunter has been given a plethora of abilities that make him best suited to pulling. Indeed, I will show that with a Hunter pulling in the worst case scenario (short of the actual player himself dying at the keyboard with auto-run activated) brings with it zero risk to the party. Adds can be reduced or negated altogether through the use of the Hunter's skills. In other words, 100% of "bad pulls" will result in either zero deaths or (rarely) the death of only the Hunter. The risk is the Hunter's alone. Just as any Warrior worth his armor rating would gladly die so that the damage dealers can live long enough to take down an enemy in the heat of battle, any Hunter worth his rifle (or wussy bow) would gladly die so that the party may survive a bad pull long before it ever becomes their problem.
Don't believe that a Hunter has the tools to guarantee the safety of the party during all pulls 100% of the time? It's probably because you've been pulling incorrectly for your entire WoW career. Let's start with a typical pre-pull scenario common to any instance.
Situation A
All party members can clearly see the two primary targets and no one doubts that aggravating one will annoy the other equally. Everyone can see the three enemies beyond them with the one walking around (minor risk) but with some good timing by the puller he can be sure that the first two foes are pulled while the walker is at a maximum distance from them just to be safe. The group has been sitting here for a few seconds, perhaps refreshing buffs and discussing which foe will receive the Polymorph, and you've seen no evidence of a patrol wandering around, so you're pretty sure there won't be any extra adds in the middle of your fight -- we'll assume this group has a Hunter and he can confirm that there is no patrol thanks to his tracking abilities.
Whether the Warrior or the Hunter is about to pull, that's a fairly typical set up right?
If you said yes, then good, you've just proven my point. You've been pulling incorrectly all along. Forcing a Hunter to pull for a group in the above scenario cripples him immeasurably. It effectively removes from the game his every tool for pulling. Since our Warrior friends have no tools for pulling and do it all the time (which is why they do it using inferior tactics), perhaps they do not understand the severity of this statement. Let me translate it for them. Forcing a Hunter to pull in the above scenario is the equivalent of forcing a Warrior to fight without the use of weapons. Under the above conditions, the Hunter is no more able to provide safety for the group than the Warrior. That the vast majority of players insist on pulling like this serves only to reinforce the myth that Hunters cannot pull. All of their abilities designed for pulling are "useless" like this. What use would you expect to get from these abilities when you engage in pulling as if you did not possess them?
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 26, 2005 5:10:40 GMT -5
* Do not use Multi-shot near CC'ed mobs (Crowd Controlled) This includes SAP, POLYMORPH, FREEZING TRAP, HIBERNATE, SHACKLE UNDEAD, and to a lesser extent, FROST NOVA. You will break CC, thus defeating its purpose. Use single-target attacks in instances unless you KNOW it's okay to do otherwise. * Do not feign death at the drop of a hat. Remember that when you feign, the mobs that are attacking you will begin attacking someone else. If that's the priest, you may cause your group to wipe. It's better for you to die than the healers--ALWAYS. * Don't forget to buy a full bag of arrows, repair your equipment, and buy pet food before going into an instance. If you find yourself low on anything mid-instance you become USELESS and the group leader will kick you. Next time, he'll just invite a mage. * Do not fire Serpent Sting (DOT) until you're sure the mob you're shooting is not going to be CCed. Serpent Sting will break CCs each time it ticks. I have a hard time grouping with affliction-specced warlocks because they always love to spam DOTs on the first thing they see, which is usually the mob I am trying to freeze trap. Again, communicate. * Do not pull with multi-shot. This has two potential problems: 1) You gain more aggro than necessary on pulling, and die. A mob you have not yet attacked can be pulled off you by anything, including demoralizing shout. If you score a critical multishot on 3 mobs, they are not going to leave you alone easily. Feign death CAN FAIL. 2) You accidentally pull a neutral mob or another group along with the intended pull. Multishot does not discriminate between aggressive, neutral, and critters. * DO NOT lose control of your pet. This is the biggest cause of wipes I've ever seen. If you do not control his actions, he will pull mobs you might have been hoping to bypass. Make sure to call your pet off if the mob he is attacking runs. Runners do not ALWAYS pull extra mobs they encounter, but if your pet follows them, it's a guarantee. Call your pet off and try to kite or kill the runner. Your pet should always be on PASSIVE mode in instances. Choose his target manually and "sic" him on it. If your pet is on defensive mode when you pull a group with ranged enemies, your pet will instantly run to the ranged enemies when they aggro you, even before they have done damage! Also remember that pets walk using the same pathing system as the AI. If you jump off a cliff, your pet will take the long way around. This is invariably bad. IF YOU HAVE EVEN AN INKLING OF A DOUBT THAT YOUR PET WILL PROPERLY TRAVEL TERRAIN, DISMISS HIM. You can re-summon him instantly and for free, unlike warlocks. I do most high-level instances without my pet for this reason. However, even if you choose to unsummon your pet to make things safer, remember that he CAN make a positive difference in battles. Make sure you call him to serve as an off tank if a fight is going badly. As an alternative to dismissing your pet, you can click the "stay" button and use Eyes of the Beast to manually walk him down a cliff. I don't do this because I am too lazy. * Don't be afraid to hold back on damage. Warriors have a really hard time keeping aggro from hunters. If you start off slow, with just auto shot, and then accellerate your DPS with arcane shot and stings as the fight goes on, you will take aggro less often and the fights will be more smoothe. * Don't expect the Priest to heal your pet. Your pet is an expendable off-tank, not a main tank. It's good if the healer can afford the mana to heal your pet, but this is extremely inefficient as pets have less armor than a true tank. Your pet should only tank in high-level instances if it HAS TO. Otherwise, turn off growl and use your pet to add to your DPS while the warrior holds aggro. If your pet is dying and the priest starts to heal him, you can get stuck in a situation where they priest HAS to keep healing the pet to keep him alive, because if he fails he now has a huge pile of aggro dumped onto him when the pet dies. 3000 points worth of healing can bring a lot of hate. Things to watch out for: * You need 8 yards of clear line of sight to fire at a mob. Stairs are your worst enemy--always pull mobs away from stairs. One of your best skills as a puller is being able to relocate the battle to wherever you want. Fight in large rooms when you can, and make sure your group knows not to cause mobs to walk toward you. Make sure you don't do so much damage the tank(s) lose aggro, because once a mob runs toward you, you have to stop firing. * Viper sting does not drain enough mana from most high-level caster mobs to have an effect. You're better off with serpent sting for extra DOT or Scorpid Sting to up the number of crits the mob will suffer. There are some specific exceptions to this rule which you will discover via experimentation, but MOST elite casters have near infinite mana. * Make sure your group knows to treat you like a caster. While you are effective without mana, you cannot use skills without it. Get the mage to give you water and Arcane Intellect. * If a mob aggroes you mid-battle, and you can survive tanking it for a while, shoot at another mob. You waste a lot of time and DPS trying to run from a mob so you can continue shooting it. Often it's better to just pick another target. Once the other target is down, your group will turn their attention to the mob hitting you, and you can back off to fire at it. * Use scatter shot to interrupt caster mobs. It is hard to time due to the Autoshot\Scattershot cooldown bug, but if you get good at using scatter shot mid-combat you can prevent a mob from casting an annoying heal. * Tab-targetting has been broken for a while. It will target whatever is in the upper left of your screen. If you are using tab targetting, twist your view so that what you are trying to target is in your upper left if your screen, and you will target properly. You're usually better off making an assist macro for the group's main tank, though, as tab targetting sometimes MISSES and goes through walls. If this happens, you may shoot a mob you REALLY don't want to, or sic your pet on an enemy that is on the floor below you. This is a sure way to wipe. Check your targets! * It's almost always better to pull groups away from their spawn area, into a pre-cleared room where there is no danger of adds. This sometimes causes problems with spawning patrols, but mainly it's a good strategy. Other classes won't understand how you operate at first. Be patient with them, convince them to stop crowding you at the edge of the aggro radius of whatever group you're pulling. The concept of "Stay back and I will pull to you" is foreign to Warriors who are used to body pulling (walking up to the mobs to aggro them.) * When pulling caster mobs or other ranged attackers, you must "Blind Pull" --Fire at the group and then hide behind something. Since the mob does not have LOS to fire at you, it will run toward you. This is better than counterspell pulling because 1) it does not generate additional aggro, 2) The mobs will waste time attempting to cast spells on you once you're out of LOS, and 3) Counterspell will still be avaialble to do better things during the battle. When you make a blind pull, make sure your group knows not to attack the mobs until they have taken the bait, or the blind pull will be a failure. * A lot of Warriors insist on pulling so they can open with Charge to build initial rage for demoralizing shout or whirlwind to establish aggro. Remind them that they can still charge as long as THEY are not in combat. The entire group does not enter combat at once, and this should definitely work to your advantage. Tell him to stand where he can charge a mob as it comes around the corner in the room where you intend to fight. You do respectable DPS, but your utility is by far the number one reason you will be desired in high-level instances. Once you realize this and make use of ALL of your skills, and you do so SKILLFULLY, the myths about hunters being useless will go away. Say it with me: USELESS Hunters are useless. Good hunters are the centerpiece of a successful group. Lastly, when your group members disagree that Hunters should pull, please send them to read this article. It's long, but the facts are all there in black and white. The author says things I wasn't quite sure how to say about group safety.
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 26, 2005 5:09:51 GMT -5
This is a guide in Hunter class written by some Gedrah found on the official WoW Hunter forum. Ive found it to be a guide with lots of crucial information about the hunter class. A piece worth reading for other classes as well. Due to its length I had to cut it in two --------------------------------------------------------------- I constantly hear people say hunters are useless in high-level instances. Considering the level of success I experience, I disagree with this statement, and I disagreeumption is that there are a lot of unskilled hunters out there tarnishing the class's reputation. I am giving away many of my trade secrets in this post so that the class as a whole can benefit from my experience and knowledge. Please add anything you feel is useful to this list. If I see something good, I will edit the post and add your information. Perhaps we can have this post stickied later to benefit everyone. Now, a good hunter can turn a gaggle of retards into a steamroller that runs through an instance like a buttered skateboard. Don't ever let anyone tell you that hunters are useless in Temple, BRD, BRS, Scholo, or Strath. A GOOD HUNTER is useful in any instance. What you can do: * You do excellent, SUSTAINED ranged dps, and with rapid fire active, no other class can rival it. With proper talents, you have 41 yards of range--enough to escape almost any mob's AOE effects, including Teremus the Devourer's life stealing flame. * You can manage aggro better than any class, including Warriors, via your pet, feign death, distracting shot, and disengage. * Freezing trap is often overlooked. With proper talents, it is a reliable, repeatable 26-second CC that works on ANY MOB (except bosses.) The fact that the hunter can place them during a battle (via proper technique) makes them amazingly useful at turning a wipe in progress into a manageable battle. If there are multiple hunters in your group and you are hoping to trap more than one mob, make sure you communicate and place the two traps more than 5 yards apart, or one mob can set off BOTH, wasting one. Also remember that if you are in a raid group, only players in your immediate group can see your traps--communicate! Since the effects of freezing trap and frost nova look identical, many people attack freeze-trapped mobs, not realizing the effect is a 20-26 second STUN that breaks on any damage. It can be tricky to learn how to get the mob you want into the freezing trap, but experimentation will show you the way. Hint: The first mob you shoot will start running toward you a second or two before the rest. Mark everyone's kill target and arcane shot the mob you want to cull into your trap. * You have the potential to be the best pulling class. Notice I said potential. Via your various tracking types, you can see where the patrols\roamers are, select a good time to pull, and use line of sight to bring mobs to a position that is agreeable to your group. This also protects against runners aggroing other groups. Also, your instant shots (distracting shot and arcane shot, to be specific) can be fired at mobs on the fringes of a group, often resulting in 1 mob in the group NOT AGGROING! (This takes timing.) * Your Debuff, Scorpid Sting, greatly reduces a mob's damage output, critical rate, and evasion rate. Use it! Warriors will take less damage and mobs will take more damage. The priest will have more mana to save your jerk. Also bear in mind that while two serpent stings will stack on the same enemy, two scorpid stings will not. Make sure multiple hunters know this; Designate one for debuffs and one for DOTs. * You can detect cloaked mobs with flare. This is excellent for the Eyes of Naraxxas in Stratholme, which can quickly cause a wipe if not IMMEDIATELY put down. * You can save the casters' lives by taking aggro from mobs that are hitting them. Distracting shot is great for this purpose. Then, you can off tank the mob with your pet by disengaging or feigning death. * Wing Clip and Concussive shot are EXCELLENT kites for stopping runners. Always wing clip a mob if you know it's going to run at low health. It lasts 10 seconds and costs almost no mana. * You can assist a mage with AOE by staying out of combat until it begins, and then placing an explosive trap in the center of the group of mobs. Volley, however, does not really do enough damage for its mana cost, cooldown, and channeling nature. I'd rather spam arcane shot and multi shot than volley. In cases where there are more than 3 targets and the main tank has firmly established aggro, it might be worth hitting volley to boost the group's AoE damage. * Use Hunter's Mark to designate targets. This is extremely useful in communicating to the group which mob you are talking about when you choose CC and kill order. It's just a bouncing arrow, but it means so much to a confused group. Communication and organization are some of the nicest things you bring to a group. With 1 mage in the group, I use HM to designate the polymorph target, and then switch HM to the group's "Kill target." This way everyone can focus fire on the weakest enemy to take him out of the equation. * You can abort a bad pull completely. It might be good to create a macro button which yells out ABORT! ABORT! or something similar, and train your group to know that this yell means "HANDS OFF." If a pull goes bad and extra groups link due to extenuating circumstances, you can call for an abort and feign death. If feign death fails, it's better for you to die than your whole group, so make sure they know that in an aborted pull, they stay away from you and you stay away from them. * Besides Rogue, you are the only class that can leave combat mid-battle. Your pet must either be unsummoned or have not attacked anything during the current battle, and then you can feign death. Stay down for 2 seconds, then get up and walk away. You are now out of combat and can plant a trap of your choosing or refresh your health and mana (IMMEASURABLY useful in the LBRS spider section.) Be warned that some groups will consider it selfish if they see you eating and drinking while they are still fighting. They are just jealous Try to be sensitive to them. * You can see what's around the corner in almost every situation. Remember to switch tracking types often so you can tell what sort of mobs are coming up and how many. You can also track rare spawns\named mobs your group might want to seek out and kill. In outdoor instances, you can use Eagle Eyes to actually LOOK into the next area and see what the room looks like--Blizzard likes to hide a few classless(untrackable) mobs such as slimes hiding behind things now and then, confusing you about the size of the pull you're coming up against. Things NOT to do: * Do not pull with Aimed Shot. If it crits, you might have a hard time giving aggro back to the tank. You are not a tank--you may live longer than cloth classes, but you are not meant to be a damage-mititgating class except in emergencies.
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 26, 2005 4:58:54 GMT -5
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 14, 2005 6:39:11 GMT -5
Yes it is true. I am playing Euro. Made a char, Dusksinger - NE Hunter - on Thunderhorn as I have a couple friends there but guess I will switch to mainly play on US-Lothar now I have the disc`s AND managed to create an playable account ;D
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 17, 2005 3:23:30 GMT -5
Would have loved to join the fun but can`t any of the days due to work. Have fun out there and remember the /Train when when running through
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Elatan
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Post by Elatan on Feb 14, 2005 9:28:13 GMT -5
I have been following this thread and I became a bit worried. It is a long time since I last played with any Valar member but the issues Alatar brought up reminded me of several other occasions I witnessed or were in while playing outside the guild in Euro. Anyway, as the thread grew I saw Alatar coming up with the same solutions/idears I have learned. I was trying to write down alot about these but I could not have done it better than Alatar. If we want the guild to survive in WoW and eventually grow we simply need to play together. To do that people have to move around, guildhunts of all kinds have to be arranged ( meaning someone have to take the initiative to do it ) and the rest have to meet up for it laying their own business aside and play a bit for the benefit of the guild. I acknowledge there are posts here telling something is done, I am just stressing it is so importent to keep on doing it simply because there is no meaning being in a guild you do not benefit from in any way. Okay - thoughts on what we can do. 1. A guild must have recognized leaders. They must be strong leaders. Our leadership is recognized, but in their desire to be gentle and allow all members to pursue their own agendas, many times they are perceived (by me, at least) to be passive. Leadership must be assertive and clear. When a guildmaster speaks, guild members respond or they are no longer guild members. By the same token, guild members must know they can go to a guildmaster with some expectation of receiving a serious audience. ~ Alatar I will agree that the leader/s needs to be strong in the sence of making things happen and take the decision and stand with it but not if you also mean its the leaders birthborn right to have it "My way or the highway" regardless of others opinion. The good GM listens, are open to suggestions and discussions. I have, in my experience of a couple years as officer and later GM in DaoC and Co-GM seen too many guilds break apart because of a GM an/or officers being too selfwilled and proud. Okay - thoughts on what we can do. 2. A guild must have a core of dedicated members who consistently subjugate their own interests to the interests of the guild and its members. Selfless behavior is at the core of Tolkienesque values, we above all should aspire to it. 3. A guild must offer its members something of value in the game as a reward, before it can ask its members to live up to standards or face the penalty of removal from the guild. You must have the carrot before you can brandish the stick. I have these suggestions: A. Guild Group Times. Designated times published to all guild members where it is known that groups will be formed of guild members with the express purpose of helping each other accomplish quests. MOST OF THE TIME, this will mean those who are elder putting aside their own advancement and helping the younger members with quests that the elders have done before and would likely wish to never do again. But if you take the long view, this will eventually result in having MORE elder members who can then band together and tackle the ELDER quests, as a guild. Given the number of skilled Euro players we have, I think we should look for weekend middays (US eastern times) for these slots. B. Guild Crafting. When guild members reach milestones - I would suggest every ten levels - they should be given such aid in craft skills as the guild has available to them. Make it a "Tens Celebration," akin to a birthday party. We gather at the designated guild gathering spot (we need to pick one of those also...Ironforge might be a good choice) and help our guildmates get outfitted for their next ten levels. I recognize this penalizes the highest level characters, who do all the crafting and have no one able to craft for them - at FIRST - but crafting skills are unrelated to level and you may be surprised how soon this changes. As the guild gets larger, it is not possible to have these in an ad hoc manner. So we begin holding them at designated times, and if you have incremented your tens digit in level since the last celebration, you're a guest of honor at that one. My paladin was working hard at advancing his herbalism and alchemy skill, and I would be more than happy to go herb hunting for an hour or so to make a lovely selection of potions for someone's celebration. C. Guild Accountability. Each guild member, regardless of rank, should be asked to aid one other guild member in some way, each week. They will be required to give account of this aid, perhaps in these forums. Guild members who receive aid and never give it will be counseled, then warned, and finally removed from the guild. How may lower level characters aid higher level characters? It may indeed be that elders are so self-sufficient that they cannot be aided. But all in the guild can do SOMETHING to aid others. A thread can be stickied with each person's offer of help being posted. People needing that kind of help can send a PM requesting it, once it's given then the one providing the aid has satisfied their requirement and may give their account. If once a week aid is too much, then once every two weeks will be fine. ~ Alatar This idear of being forced to help a lower level I am not too keen about. I realize the good thoughts and the idear but I would rather have it was of totally free will. Eventually as something the guild as a whole recommend but the minut you begin to force people to take certain actions you may begin build up a system of billing eachother. I aided you, now you owe me one or I will post a flame against you. One may say it is in the guilds foundation to aid and help eachother in good fellowship. If I am right we play to have fun playing with eachother. It is not the end of the journey that is fun, it is the road towards the end. Maybe we just need to remind ourselves and eachother what we are and then be a good rolemodel. Okay - thoughts on what we can do. D. Guild Values. The guild's values in game should be clearly defined. I said before that I thought the values of the Fellowship were Loyalty, Honor, Courage, and Duty. We should decide what we consider the list to actually be, and those should become the Valar Guild's identity. All guild members are required to live up to them or face removal from the guild. Now, let me answer in advance some anticipated questions. "This places all the burden on elder characters. We have our own business to be about." Yes, it does require elders to take the long view. Elders cannot be aided by youngers, for the most part. But youngers will BECOME elders, with aid, and if aided along the path will be determined to return that aid to the elders who aided them. In other words, the aid a level 40 offers to a level 10 now will ensure that same level 40 of having level 60 raiding partners when he's in need of them later. WE MUST TAKE THE LONG VIEW. "This doesn't sound like fun. I am playing to have fun." Starting a guild IS work. No question. Guilds are fun once they're established and running smoothly. But, and I guarantee you of this, every guild that is functional today had members who buried their own in game agendas in the early days. The rewards of a mature, seasoned guild, loyal to each other and skilled in playing together are COUNTLESS. I've seen it, I'm sure of it, and I believe it can happen here in WOW. "Too much talk. Kill more stuff." Everyone in the Valar Guild - and everyone who groups with us - must be prepared for talk before action. We are all frustrated with people who run off half-thingyed and get the group killed. PATIENT PLAY WILL BE REQUIRED. When the group leader calls for a strategy break, we all stop and discuss strategy with him or her. If a group member is unclear on their role and wishes to ask about it, we pause and explain it again. "You're a pompous jerk. Do you really think this will work?" Yes, I AM a pompous jerk. Thanks for noticing! Do I think it will work? ABSOLUTELY. The number one best recruiting tool a guild has is for other players to see groups with multiple guild players in it. That's the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and it doesn't matter which MMOG you're discussing. Who knows? We may become so winsome as a guild that people get turned on to Tolkien just to become a part of us! Anyhow, these are just SUGGESTIONS and I encourage you to use them as seed for the growth of your own thoughts on the matter. I find myself at the moment perplexed at the thought that for the Valar Guild to be a good guild "in game," I have to recruit new people - but I can't recruit people to a guild that I wouldn't want to be a part of if I wasn't already. Catch-22. WOW has given us the tools, folks. In DAOC, if a level 50 even TOUCHED the mob that a level 10 was fighting, it was game over. No XP, no loot, no quest completion. WOW is not this way. A level 60 can help a level 5 complete a quest. The level 60 gets nothing out of it, but the level 5 still does fine. It's up to us. Will we use this tool? I'll watch these forums for discussion. ~ Alatar Well said.
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Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Post by Elatan on Feb 8, 2005 4:07:26 GMT -5
Heh np Menelvagor Maybe I should tune the Member page into 05 ;D Anyone using ICQ and the B.net accounts anymore ? I do not think so.
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Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Post by Elatan on Feb 7, 2005 12:53:16 GMT -5
I find the charter itself fulfilling, yet a couple links need comments. www3.sympatico.ca/aule/Code of Conduct. (Have to go to the CoC link on the left first to get there, doesn't have direct link) I do think this page needs an update. Most, if not all still stands, but it was written 6 years ago and should be tuned into 2005 (New games, new possibilities, slight change in rules ) It has been mentioned a couple times before that an update was needed, perhaps now is the time. Thats an insult J/K It is up to date. If I get the new info, people leaving / joining / Email and so on ( Which I believe I do since it is Varda that provides me with it ) It is up to date. edit: noticed you had quoted me, but saw something didn't go exactly right, so corrected that
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Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Post by Elatan on Jan 20, 2005 6:31:04 GMT -5
Even though I am not yet in the "right realm" ( still on Euro Beta awaiting the option to come US and join ) I fully agree with Ulmo here. The issues and idears that is brought up applies to all the mmorpg I know and are basic tactic with little or no difference. They are needed to learn for effective gaming and reaching beyond what 5 independent chars can achive. But it takes time to establish a well funktioning group where all know exactly what to do in a given situation.
One thing I would like to add is focus. Achieving the highest outcome for the group in any fight relies on peoples focus on what they are doing. If just one char in the group is having his focus on PM`s, generel chat or other things not within the group even the most well-trained wellplayed group may easily die. It is needed every char is having focus on group, GL/RL`s messages, stick/follow up when said etc etc.
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Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Post by Elatan on Jan 5, 2005 10:44:27 GMT -5
Since housing probably will be expencive and money can be hard to come by in the early stages of a chars/guilds life it is my experience that funding crafting skills should be postponed until "money aint an issue" Often, and I quess this will be the case in WoW too, crafting is an expencive thing at least in the high levels and probably very time consuming too. Funding these often will end up in lost money simply because people loose interest due to the time and thus they never reach the top levels ( where all chars at some time ends and need the top level crafter )
Instead of funding crafting directly I would suggest those who wish to craft and use their own money are supported indirectly by items and other needs evt. bought by guildmoney.
Another idear is a shared crafter account fully funded by guildmoney. Such an account also is available for service many hours due to the 3-4 different users of the account.
Money for the Battlegrounds maybe would be an idear ? do not know what will happen there but perhaps there will be need for money to upgrade fortress, NPC`s , siege weapons, etc. etc.
Money to aid newcomers, new members, items ?
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Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Post by Elatan on Mar 24, 2005 5:30:30 GMT -5
About addons. Due to Blizz` constantly hotfixing, patching or whatever they keep doing I have found Cosmos a couple times to be way too slow to react and fix their program according to patches. I find CTmod to be the best considering all.
If God gave you wings, would you not fly? =) That is the old Balrog question again ;D DID God give them wings after all ? If he did not why do people keep saying they have ? and If thy have why are they not flying then ?
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