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Post by Alatar on Feb 9, 2005 20:36:52 GMT -5
I'm going to take my leave for a while, I think...from WoW at least. Or, from Lothar anyway. I find myself playing solo 95% of the time. I try to find groups, with limited success, and when I do they're almost uniformly idiots. I am stuck with a quest log full of elite quests I can't do alone, even waiting until the mobs are grey con to me isn't enough. I can take one or two elites that are -6/-7 my own level, but when three or four jump me, I die. Everyone in Valar is nice enough, and quite good players too, but the world is just too big. We're always a continent apart from each other and travel time alone prohibits guild groups. Our levels are quite disparate, but that's not as much the issue as the distance and our limited numbers. I'll go play some on Elune where my DAoC/Gaheris guilds landed. With 15 to 30 people online whenever you log in, the odds of finding guildmates in your region and available to help are better. It's the same thing that killed Valar as a guild in DAoC. With our Tolkien theme and five question entry test, our numbers were so small we simply could not function as a guild in an MMOG. Our individual members found themselves playing off their friends list with people from other guilds, and eventually they moved on to those other guilds. It's something for Valar to think about here, as well. Small and close-knit works, and large and far-flung works too. We're small and far-flung. Dangerous brew. I do not post this message to scold, nor to make anyone feel guilty. No one is responsible for my happiness in an online game, except me. I posted this note for two reasons. First, I didn't want to just log out and drop off the face of the earth without explaining why. And second, to plant the seed in everyone's mind about what it means to be a guild in the GAME sense. What I see of Valar is a collection of largely self-sufficient players, off soloing or running with pick-up groups. I've seen this faced in every game, on every server, with every guild I've belonged to. In the end, the guilds that grew and prospered were the guilds that made a plan to foster interaction. It might be something as simple as "guild nights." Designated evenings when all guild members pledge to group in guild groups, regardless of level, regardless of distance and travel inconvenience, and help the youngers get through their quests. The guild will do much better when there are a dozen level 60s in it, rather than one or two. Or, maybe I'm entirely wrong. That's always possible. Anyone who knows me can testify that I am not the keeper of all knowledge. Anyway, safe journies friends. /salute ~ Alatar
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Post by Ulmo 1997-2011 on Feb 10, 2005 6:54:05 GMT -5
Your analysis of guilds is very accurate Alatar. When we only played D2 and Starcraft it wasn't an issue. I remember moving to EQ with Aule and Earendil. It was to become the beginning of the splintering. I have work in a few, so no time to post a proper opinion. I'm not so sure I have one figured out yet anyway. I do think we need to consider individually what we want to make of our WoW gaming and whether we can make The Valar Guild in WoW meet those needs. With our varied times to play, small numbers, etc., I can see this inability to play together increase.
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Post by Eonwë on Feb 11, 2005 0:12:32 GMT -5
I'm warning you now that this is likely to be a long post. In fact, this post takes two posts. Let the reader beware.
I've had plenty of time to think about this, since shortly after the DAoC group was formed, in fact. From my view, the problem runs deeper than us having an entry test, or even small numbers. Based on what I saw/heard, one major problem was that the DAoC group became increasingly isolated from the rest of the Guild. There was no participation in Guild activities by almost anyone in the DAoC group, barring one or two that were already full members of the Valar Guild before we even went into DAoC. This included dropping the entry test and sporadic contact with anyone playing DAoC. It wasn't too long before members of DAoC weren't even members of the Valar Guild. At most one or two people from DAoC came to any of the Valar Guild meetings. There was in my view no sense of community.
Another problem I saw from my side of the looking glass was that there was no connection to the roots of the Valar Guild. No one cared about Tolkien, and no one cared to contribute anything to anything involving Tolkien, and it was eventually dropped altogether, which still didn't help.
Several of the decisions I made with WoW was to foster the sense of community and belonging not to just the WoW group but to the Valar Guild as a whole. This is why ranking is the exact same as that for the Valar Guild, why using self-created names related to your Guild name is recommended, why Lothar, a normal sever, was chosen, why I chose to focus members at the Sunday meeting rather than a separate WoW meeting, and why attending meetings and using this Forum are strongly recommended (to the point of where I have considered making one or the other mandatory).
As you have said before on this board, and which I strongly agree with, a rank that means nothing will mean nothing to the person recieving it. Being a member of the Valar Guild is a privilege, an honor, not a right. We don't look to be the biggest or the best Guild out there. We don't try to be "l33t" or "uber," but we expect our members to be the best individuals they can possibly be, and to contribute to the Guild to the best of their ability. We set our standards and we expect them to be met because we know that anyone can meet them if they really want to. The answer is not to lower our standards, but to find more who are willing to make themselves the best them they can be.
Therein lies the problem, Alatar. It used to be easy to find members because they would come to us, or our members would play games with strangers, find out they are Tolkien fans, and send them to the channel to be interviewed/chatted with by testers. This is not so commonplace any more. We have seemingly become increasingly isolationist. Most if not all potential members come in through the web page, and most of those become Tolkien-Only members at best. I think our actual newest member (not returning, but brand new) might have almost a year under his/her belt. If we are going to grow, we need new members, but again, I do not believe lowering our standards is the answer. Active scouting is, and is especially both harder and more important due to the nature of the games we are moving into.
Being in a Guild is a commitment. Being in the leadership of a Guild is an even bigger one. Most of the responsibilities I gained in the Valar Guild weren't gained until after I became a Vala, and many of those (that didn't come with the job) were voluntary.
When we lost people to EQ, and later DAoC, we did not just lose a few members to a game. We lost people very important to the fostering of community and the continuance of the values and traditions of the Valar Guild. We lost testers who knew what is expected of members, knew what we wanted of members, and could test potential recruits and bring them into the Guild. We lost people who could help teach these members what was expected of them and help them learn the ways they could contribute. I hope this doesn't sound like scolding to those people we lost to those games, as that is not the intention of this paragraph. This is simply a statement of fact as I see it.
We are already more lax than we used to be, much more in my opinion. There was a time when members not coming into a meeting under their Guild name would've been asked to switch. It was required. There was a time when too many interruptions of a meeting would result in a kick for the interrupter, member or not (not that we could do this in AIM). There was a time when more members participated in Tolkien discussions at meetings.
There was a time when we did not have an entry test, but it was implemented because we were supposed to be a Tolkien group, yet hardly anybody knew anything about Tolkien. This is way before my time, but can be found in several of the Guild histories, available for reading by any member.
If we are not a Tolkien Guild, then what are we? What do we have to offer that other groups don't? Why bother to join us at all? This is a question the Council has asked itself before, and I'm sure has been brought up in a meeting or two.
Only part of the reason I joined this group was Tolkien, but Tolkien was definitely the only reason I even knew about this group. I wasn't looking for a guild to join, and at the time, I couldn't care less about guilds. I was quite content to live my online life as a loner. The other part is what got me. I walked into the Guild channel, and I met a guy named Aulë. My initial opinion after reading the Games Page (then operated by Makar) was that these guys must be pretty sure of themselves to dare name themselves after Valar. Varda? Ulmo? Manwë? Who did these people think they were? (slight exaggeration on the latter question; also, I had at the time little idea of how the guild hierarchy worked). While I have at this point no recollection of what I asked Aulë, I do remember that I was fairly satisfied with his answers. Then with time another member or two walked in, one named Ulmo, and I believe the other was under the name Lorien at the time. I was asked by Aulë if I was interested in joining the Guild, and I told him I wasn't sure. I had to think hard about that for several minutes. I had never been in a group, club, anything of the sort. I was quite happy with my small group of friends: A guy named Overkill44, with whom I had some of the most fun I ever did on BW; Frodo11110, who as I recall eventually joined the guild under another name, which I will not share :}; and a guy named [SiN]DarkHobbit. As I sat there thinking, I watched the interaction between Aule and Ulmo, and to be honest, I was impressed. They seemed to be very good friends, despite wherever it was that they lived, and I decided that a group with people like that would be a great place to be. It was inspiring to be quite honest.
(Before I spend too much time reminiscing...) I never regretted the decision I made that day. My online friends outside of the Guild I have unfortunately lost contact with over the years, and obviously I've taken on a new incarnation or two since then.
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Post by Eonwë on Feb 11, 2005 0:13:02 GMT -5
Part of the point of this lengthy flashback, I suppose, is that I have got out of this Guild what I have put in, and in most cases without even expecting it. I did not expect to become a Maia, and never intended to apply for it, and even less expected I would become a Vala. All members must realize that they too will get out of the Guild what they put in. If members want to just have a tag on their name, then it's possible, but it's not going to do you or us any good. If members want something they can contribute to, somewhere they can find friends and discuss at least one thing they enjoy with people who also enjoy it, then we can help there a bit more. There's always some way to contribute, and never enough people contributing. We need stuff for the Encyclopedia, Guild Tournament maps for WC3/TFT, Guild Activity ideas for WoW, and many many web pages, some of which are more obvious than others. For those who don't/can't contribute in any other way, there's also Tolkien chats on the Forum or at meetings. This was the staple of my contributions during my first several months of being a Guild member. Contributing to the atmosphere of the Guild, demonstrating its purpose and spirit, is also a way to contribute.
Encouraging contributions is part of engendering a spirit of community (see, I tied it all back in :}). I do this every chance I get. I don't know how hard we can stress that every member is as important and as involved as they wish to make themselves. When we move into other games and set up branches (and we will eventually, which is unavoidable due to the nature of humanity) we need to make clear that the Valar Guild is not just a WoW guild, not just a DAoC guild, and not just a MEO guild. The Valar Guild is beyond all that, because it has to be, and if it cannot rise to the task then I think we'll have problems existing as a guild. It will take the strength, courage, and dedication of the Council in making tough and necessary decisions as they come along, the wisdom of all testers to ensure we bring in strong members who truly have a chance at becoming Maiar and hopefully eventually Valar, and all members in contributing not just in tangible ways but to the overall atmosphere as well, which is full of tradition and joy, of helping eachother, putting another's need before one's own greed (used loosely here).
I hope this all makes as much sense to you all as it did to me.
Take care. Eonwë
P.S. I will address WoW get-togethers in a separate post a bit later. I have not ignored this, and this is another thing I've thought about for a long time, being tied into the contributions to the Guild/member activity theme.
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Post by Maglor on Feb 11, 2005 17:43:07 GMT -5
I'm going to take my leave for a while, I think...from WoW at least. Or, from Lothar anyway. That is something I have been thinking about saying for a long time. People may have noticed that I was never playing, that is because I have been playing on a different server. Playing WoW is about having fun, and the times I played on Lothar I did not enjoy myself, due to a variety of things. More and more I just played my other characters until now I'm at the point where I think I will be deleting my characters on Lothar. The Valar Guild is a great group to be part of, but, I'm sorry to say, wasn't that fun to play WoW with, therefore I too will take my leave of Lothar. Maglor
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Post by Alatar on Feb 12, 2005 11:12:46 GMT -5
I am as guilty as anyone of missing the Sunday meetings, Eonwe - so I must take my lumps there. When we played D2X, it was easy to be reminded. We did the meeting in a Bnet channel, and we were all logged in to Bnet for gaming. Simple. DAOC, it was much harder. You had to disengage from whatever was going on in game, including leaving groups if you were in one, and come to the meeting. As you know, a group in an MMOG like EQ/DAOC and now EQ2/WOW is a much more serious thing than in D2X, where any one of our single characters could dominate an encounter. Reading your post, I asked myself why I joined the Valar Guild. Mostly, it was because my best friend in real life (Mahtan), who spent hours and hours discussing Tolkien with me, called me up one day and said "you've got to come join this guild!" And so I did. At the time, I was rediscovering my own love of the books, reading them to my young son every night. Now he reads them on his own, and knows many parts as well or better than I do. I enjoyed the idea of a gaming guild founded on the principles of the Fellowship: Loyalty, Honor, Courage, Duty. The Tolkien discussions were not so interesting to me, honestly. I love discussing Tolkien from a PHILOSOPHICAL standpoint, but this fanatical attention to trivial detail ("Okay, what color were the TIPS of the Balrog wings - IF they had them? I saw something on page 501 of BoLT3 that says yadda yaddda yadda...") was dry as sand to me. My knowledge of the trilogy and the Silmarillion is decent, I suppose. Enough to do 5/5 on my entry test and 4/5 on my Maia test. But I REALLY don't care about those balrog wingtips. I must rededicate myself to those Sunday 5pm meetings. I started to come back and realized just how much I despise AIM. I'm sorry to be such a technosnob but as soon as I loaded it I started finding spyware on my PC again that allegedly "supports AIM." I wish AOL offered something akin to the MSN Web Messenger, that left no footprint. But all that techno-schtuff aside, the real reason I don't come to meetings is simply that in the years of playing DAOC, I got far outside of the habit. I have found the long time members of the group to be uniformly generous, skilled at gaming, and - barring specific topics with specific people - pleasant to chat with. I have no ill will toward the Valar Guild, I have nothing bad to say about any of you. Now, to the subject of guild recruiting. I agree wholeheartedly that we need to do this. There are two things standing in our way. First, WOW game mechanics itself discourage grouping. You only need a group for instances and elite encounters. Groups form at the doorways to these and break up just as soon as they are over. No relationships are formed there. No one forms a group to go adventure together in this game, aside from guild groups and friends. People make a group to do XX, and when XX is done - the group is also. I've had two decent groups on Lothar, in all my hours played there. One with Arathorn and his non-guild friend, and the other with Merry, another Valar member (the name escapes me now), and two people we found by the roadside. That's TWO good groups, in days and days played. There is precious little chance to recruit. Game mechanics also get in the way due to the sheer SIZE of the place. Hey...in Act 3 of D2X, you'd eventually bump into each other at the Kurast Docks! Game mechanics are also the bogeyman in the PACE of this game. There is almost NO downtime. So, unless a group forms and stays together for a period of time, how do you work in any conversation? The second factor is the LotR movies. Bottom line, everyone thinks they're a Tolkien fan/expert now. You start talking about LotR and people start telling you how hot Legolas is, or wondering whether Legolas can beat Aragorn in a fight. <sighs deeply and looks irritated> I love the movies, have all three extended editions here. But sometimes I wish they'd never been made, because it's made a generation of "inch deep" Tolkien fans who can't read the books because they have "too many words." (I actually heard that, last night, in DAOC.) So where does all this rambling lead? The Valar Guild will only attract new members and keep them if it is perceived as a good thing to belong to. People join a guild in a GAME to support their activities in that GAME. To find partners for groups, to get aid from their elders in difficult tasks, to find good conversation. We are scattered all around the world, so we don't group except by happenstance. Our elder players don't WANT to come do the Deadmines AGAIN to help the younger ones through it, because they're PAST all that (geez! how MANY times did I kill Baal for people!). We get so absorbed in our solo tasks or other groupings that conversation in our guild channel is sporadic, at best. In short, the difference (for the MOST part) between being in the Valar Guild and NOT being in the Valar Guild, speaking strictly in GAME TERMS here, is the tag floating over my head. I have some thoughts about what the guild could do, IF it wants to grow in this game, but my wife has just fixed me breakfast and it's getting cold. I'll come back and post more, later. Namarie, Alatar
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Post by Alatar on Feb 12, 2005 12:36:20 GMT -5
Okay - thoughts on what we can do. Having been a part of both successful and unsuccessful game guilds - and I am speaking strictly in terms of guilds in the gaming world, while recognizing that the Valar Guild is more than that, because we must be honest and know that in a game where guilds are useful to the point of almost being required, our guild must be a good gaming guild if we expect anyone to be a member of it even for external reasons - I hope I can distill my thoughts in this regard. 1. A guild must have recognized leaders. They must be strong leaders. Our leadership is recognized, but in their desire to be gentle and allow all members to pursue their own agendas, many times they are perceived (by me, at least) to be passive. Leadership must be assertive and clear. When a guildmaster speaks, guild members respond or they are no longer guild members. By the same token, guild members must know they can go to a guildmaster with some expectation of receiving a serious audience. 2. A guild must have a core of dedicated members who consistently subjugate their own interests to the interests of the guild and its members. Selfless behavior is at the core of Tolkienesque values, we above all should aspire to it. 3. A guild must offer its members something of value in the game as a reward, before it can ask its members to live up to standards or face the penalty of removal from the guild. You must have the carrot before you can brandish the stick. I have these suggestions: A. Guild Group Times. Designated times published to all guild members where it is known that groups will be formed of guild members with the express purpose of helping each other accomplish quests. MOST OF THE TIME, this will mean those who are elder putting aside their own advancement and helping the younger members with quests that the elders have done before and would likely wish to never do again. But if you take the long view, this will eventually result in having MORE elder members who can then band together and tackle the ELDER quests, as a guild. Given the number of skilled Euro players we have, I think we should look for weekend middays (US eastern times) for these slots. B. Guild Crafting. When guild members reach milestones - I would suggest every ten levels - they should be given such aid in craft skills as the guild has available to them. Make it a "Tens Celebration," akin to a birthday party. We gather at the designated guild gathering spot (we need to pick one of those also...Ironforge might be a good choice) and help our guildmates get outfitted for their next ten levels. I recognize this penalizes the highest level characters, who do all the crafting and have no one able to craft for them - at FIRST - but crafting skills are unrelated to level and you may be surprised how soon this changes. As the guild gets larger, it is not possible to have these in an ad hoc manner. So we begin holding them at designated times, and if you have incremented your tens digit in level since the last celebration, you're a guest of honor at that one. My paladin was working hard at advancing his herbalism and alchemy skill, and I would be more than happy to go herb hunting for an hour or so to make a lovely selection of potions for someone's celebration. C. Guild Accountability. Each guild member, regardless of rank, should be asked to aid one other guild member in some way, each week. They will be required to give account of this aid, perhaps in these forums. Guild members who receive aid and never give it will be counseled, then warned, and finally removed from the guild. How may lower level characters aid higher level characters? It may indeed be that elders are so self-sufficient that they cannot be aided. But all in the guild can do SOMETHING to aid others. A thread can be stickied with each person's offer of help being posted. People needing that kind of help can send a PM requesting it, once it's given then the one providing the aid has satisfied their requirement and may give their account. If once a week aid is too much, then once every two weeks will be fine. D. Guild Values. The guild's values in game should be clearly defined. I said before that I thought the values of the Fellowship were Loyalty, Honor, Courage, and Duty. We should decide what we consider the list to actually be, and those should become the Valar Guild's identity. All guild members are required to live up to them or face removal from the guild. Now, let me answer in advance some anticipated questions. "This places all the burden on elder characters. We have our own business to be about." Yes, it does require elders to take the long view. Elders cannot be aided by youngers, for the most part. But youngers will BECOME elders, with aid, and if aided along the path will be determined to return that aid to the elders who aided them. In other words, the aid a level 40 offers to a level 10 now will ensure that same level 40 of having level 60 raiding partners when he's in need of them later. WE MUST TAKE THE LONG VIEW. "This doesn't sound like fun. I am playing to have fun." Starting a guild IS work. No question. Guilds are fun once they're established and running smoothly. But, and I guarantee you of this, every guild that is functional today had members who buried their own in game agendas in the early days. The rewards of a mature, seasoned guild, loyal to each other and skilled in playing together are COUNTLESS. I've seen it, I'm sure of it, and I believe it can happen here in WOW. "Too much talk. Kill more stuff." Everyone in the Valar Guild - and everyone who groups with us - must be prepared for talk before action. We are all frustrated with people who run off half-thingyed and get the group killed. PATIENT PLAY WILL BE REQUIRED. When the group leader calls for a strategy break, we all stop and discuss strategy with him or her. If a group member is unclear on their role and wishes to ask about it, we pause and explain it again. "You're a pompous jerk. Do you really think this will work?" Yes, I AM a pompous jerk. Thanks for noticing! Do I think it will work? ABSOLUTELY. The number one best recruiting tool a guild has is for other players to see groups with multiple guild players in it. That's the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and it doesn't matter which MMOG you're discussing. Who knows? We may become so winsome as a guild that people get turned on to Tolkien just to become a part of us! Anyhow, these are just SUGGESTIONS and I encourage you to use them as seed for the growth of your own thoughts on the matter. I find myself at the moment perplexed at the thought that for the Valar Guild to be a good guild "in game," I have to recruit new people - but I can't recruit people to a guild that I wouldn't want to be a part of if I wasn't already. Catch-22. WOW has given us the tools, folks. In DAOC, if a level 50 even TOUCHED the mob that a level 10 was fighting, it was game over. No XP, no loot, no quest completion. WOW is not this way. A level 60 can help a level 5 complete a quest. The level 60 gets nothing out of it, but the level 5 still does fine. It's up to us. Will we use this tool? I'll watch these forums for discussion. ~ Alatar
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Varda
Vala, Council
Posts: 1,042
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Post by Varda on Feb 12, 2005 23:47:53 GMT -5
Greetings. Good discussion. I agree with most of what has been said.
We already do much of it. For instance, yesterday, human Auros, his human brother, my elf hunter, and gnome Merry all grouped in the Deadmines, even though we did some continent hopping to manage it. We did so to enjoy each other's company and help certain members with their quests. I had zero quests there, but had fun. We discussed strategy and roles we could handle before going in, and adjusted as we went.
We chatted a good bit while playing, including some awful puns. We cheered each other when a quest was turned in. We also kept a Tolkien theme going in much of our talk, including elvish words here and there, and Tolkien references.
My family is on nearly all the time, taking turns at the computer. I am willing to quest with others and have done so. I rarely see other members on to group with. Perhaps they are using alternate names. We can't invite a member to the guild unless we know his name or he lets us know he's on in some fashion. Please type /join Valar to drop into the Valar channel (non-guild) and get in touch. It is kind to keep that channel available for alts and members just joining WoW.
It is hard to talk in the Guild or Valar channels while grouping, but we do it. I say Aiya and hope someone eventually stops having to fight for his life and say hi back.
AIM meetings or Sigma Chat or IRC can run in the background while you are in WoW. People switch back and forth, scrolling. They can also ask in the meeting for players in any game.
Having said this, yes, we do need to work on the very things Alatar and Eonwe were talking about. We try to get together in WoW after meetings (or even during, using alt+tab). We also have some get-togethers on Friday night when Eonwe can come on. I am usually very busy with real life during the day, but could make an effort to come on at other times.
We also have fun getting together and bowing, greeting each other, kidding around. I've seen other folk who came along with us get quite a kick out of us and stick around.
Okay guys. Let's get our names and alternates listed on the Forum in the character section, the rest of us put them on our friend lists, and get everyone invited into the guild.
We're also working on getting tabards for members. Anyone want to help with that?
Low levels can help high levels with resources, such as skins, herbs, and pearls found in barnacles, linen, wool, and spider silk. Ask what is needed for that goody someone is making you and see if you can help with the re-supply of some item.
Help each other complete gryphon paths, set up ports, and in general make it easier to get together. Ironforge or Stormwind or Auberdine seem to have been good spots to reach each other so far.
Eventually, we'll join up to hit the Battlegrounds, and need to level each other up. Be friendly with other guilds and players, as we'll need help there, and could make ourselves be desirable to be invited along when they go in as well.
Alatar, you're a Maia. It's good to see you acting like one and helping out with these excellent comments! More power to you, and I hope we can play sometime.
Mainly, let's all get together and enjoy playing!
Have fun, Varda
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Post by Maglor on Feb 13, 2005 5:22:48 GMT -5
In response to Alatar's post, those are some well thought-out plans, but those plans are one of the reasons I was turned away from playing WoW with Valar.
Look at the WoW topics in the Valar forum and we have a thread stating that we need a group strategy, another on looting rules and one about how we should contribute money to the guild. These things are all important, but I fail to see the need to talk endlessly about them.
I play with a guild on Durotan, and we have never once actually talked about these things, and we have never had a problem, not one.
As far as group strategy goes play how your character is supposed to play. Not only does a party not require a leader, neither does it need any set roles. I've been on many of the higher level instances and I can safely say, if everyone is paying attention and doing their job it will go fine.
For looting rules, the people I play with (if everyone is a member of the guild) always have the loot set on group loot (the default setting). That means if you need the item, roll, if you don't need it, don't roll. Common sense. If everyone passes, then have a /random for selling it. Again, none of this should have to be said, its common sense.
I have absolutely no problems with sharing money with guild members, but I also see absolutely no reason to have a guild money holder. Not only is money so easy to make in this game that it wouldn't be worthwile, but the guild as a whole only needs to make two real payments, to start the guild, and to get a tabard design. The money required for both of these is negligable and really does not require a guild bank. Even if the bank is for helping people with mounts etc. it's just as easy to help one another when you get to that point (for example, a higher level player might give a gift of 20g to someone who just turned level 40, that person, in turn, gifts a new level 40 later on).
As I said, these things have never been discussed with my guild on Durotan and everything works fine. We have been through some amazing instances together (all of them from Razorfen to Mauradon) and we rarely have trouble. I have yet to see a single argument over loot, and I have never seen anyone charge for a crafted item unless they had to buy expensive ingredients, then it was at cost. This is how guild should work, and we shouldn't need to talk every little detail out before we do things.
Just my 2 copper
Maglor
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Post by Eonwë on Feb 13, 2005 8:27:01 GMT -5
I quick reply before I head off to bed.
Maglor, the ones making these suggestions have played in other MMORPGs for a few years and have seen these problems arise. They do not bring the topics up simply to get more items or lord anything over people. They want to make sure these problems don't arise in WoW.
That being said, I agree that there are some things that shouldn't have to be said. We shouldn't have to explain in detail how looting should go. The spirit of giving and generosity should be so intertwined into our nature as a guild that it is something someone automatically picks up. However, not everyone catches on that quickly. Some newcomers in WoW people may be so used to dealing with the ninja-looters and greedy people out there that rather than making sure the item goes to the person who needs it, they pick it up. Now that isn't a real problem for Bind on Equip items, but a potentially very useful item for someone else could instantly become garbage by a mistake like that. Done frequently because the person doesn't realize what we expect and it becomes annoying. Having a fairly clearly laid out looting system (namely: If you can't use it, check to make sure no one else can first, don't loot or mine while everyone else is stuggling to fight, seemingly obvious stuff like that) then it becomes easy to enforce: do it once or twice is a mistake and you're informed of the rules. Do it repeatedly after being reminded and it becomes a problem that results in a boot from the Guild. I've been in groups where I've trusted people enough to put it on free-for-all. Ideally, we all should be able to go that far with our trust, but group loot is more useful in that it brings to attention the item in question to all people.
Also, not everyone sees the preset looting rules the same way. For some people out there, group loot means that they can roll on everything and anything. If they win, that's tough. If we don't say differently, they'll assume that's how it is.
As for no leader, I've been in groups where there's been no "declared" leader, and the one guy offering information from his last experience in the area and offering strategies got verbally attacked by another member, accused of being bossy.
Are leaders needed in every situation? No. Are they needed in instances? Probably more than in regular places. Are they needed in raids? I'd say yes. I'd say the need for a leader is directly proportional to a.) the number of people in a group and b.) the ability of said people to work together flawlessly. What if someone doesn't knwo what they should be doing? You can't expect everyone to be on your level of expertise, Maglor.
Let it be known, however, that if I see something going on in a group I don't like, I'm going to say something, whether it be too many people running ahead and triggering too many mobs, or someone looting when they should be fighting. I'm usually a fairly patient man, but that kind of stuff gets real tired real soon. Part of my job as a Vala is to make sure people know what they should be doing, that they understand what we're about and how we do things here... guess what, that's leading. It's not the only part of leading, but it is leading.
Who decides how my character is supposed to play? I am a Paladin. Do I focus on healing, blessing, melee, tanking, or all of the above? Do I do all in all situations? No. My role changes as the situation changes and as my team changes. If the Priest says he can handle all the healing I have to trust he's got it all covered unless told otherwise. If it gets really hairy I can throw Blessing of Protection on someone to hold him for the Priest. Should a hunter stand back all the time? Not necessarily. For some situations that extra body might provide just the extra target needed to save the caster. Rogues can cover pulling as well as hunters or mages, and a Rogue/Mage combo can do crowd control/pulling better than a hunter can when dealing with large groups. The way I play my Paladin might suit better for dealing damage than tanking, so I might need to leave that to the Warrior. The style of play for each person plays a factor in the role of the party member just as the class does.
The Guild bank was started for the purpose of paying for Guild expenses. It doesn't rule out or replace helping eachother out in any way. At one time I hoped to use this fund to buy tabards for members as I hoped to have all members contributing, and to hold a sort of ceremony to add a bit of significance to recieving your tabard. Since no members seem to care about having such a ceremony, this idea has been dropped and the Guild fund largely dropped. However, if and when Blizzard implements Guild housing and other Guild money sinks, it will be needed again, that is, if any of you want any of these niceties. As far as I'm concerned we can live without them, and so unless the WoW group as a whole wants them, we won't have them. Just like Guild Tourneys. Just like Guild Branches. Something someone doesn't have to work for means nothing to that person.
What you give as an example is already done among some of us. When I first joined the Valar Guild, I was shown the depth of our charity. I walked into the D1 VK mod for the first time (hopefully you know a little about the VK mod) and I was showers with gifts. I could never hope to return such favors as I recieved, so I decided helping other members would be just as good. Not that I wouldn't have been generous anyway, but I was shown that generosity was a standard in the Valar Guild, not something you either hope for or live without depending on your personality.
As for crafting, I flat out don't charge any member for any item I smith. If I don't have the materials, all the person who wants an item has to do is supply the item. When I've offered it to the person and let them know what I don't have for it, other members have chimed right in saying they have a spare whatever it is, and they send it to me to make for the other person, asking nothing in return. We already have this kind of thing.
As for discussion, that is when you as a member get a chance to give your input. When those who wish to contribute to the discussion have hopefully done so and the discussion is declared closed, the decision is made. If you didn't speak up, your chance is gone.
To sum up, not everyone has our "common sense" Maglor. Some people need to have it explained, or they assume that it doesn't matter. It's either we have it in a readily available place so all can read it and so be expected to know it, or every time we bring someone into the Valar Guild we explain it to them. Repeat this process about 200 times and you see it gets tiresome. I've seen too many people in real life and in games on separate pages of the same book, or even the same page in separate books, to believe everyone is automatically reading the same thing. As they say, better to err in caution.
To sum up my responses directly to Alatar's post: I mostly agree with A, Don't think we could pull off B if we wanted to, Don't agree C should be forced on anyone, as it should be part of the very atmosphere we project, and agree with D.
As for questions : I would hope 1.) wouldn't be an issue for any Guild member. Also, I learned I couldn't help higher lvl players a long time ago :}
2.) Anyone who makes it to Maia and eventually Vala hopefully realizes by that point that this does require a bit(understatment once you reach Vala) of work. Yes, we're here to have fun. There are times as a Vala I find myself not having fun. In this guild, it's more often Responsibility than Power that comes with rank. At the risk of sounding like a geezer, when I joined, you had to make a brand new character for the Guild. When you got promoted, you not only had to change your name, you had to make new guild accounts and thus brand new characters for the Guild. I admit though that doing so would be more painful in an MMO than doing so on bnet, part of why this was discontinued in that you don't have to change your name when promoted to Maia (however it's still an option).
3.) I'm on both sides of this :}
4.)At least you're proud of what you are :} (don't necessarily agree that you are, but assume you know you better than I know you :})
60 helping 5 This is one place where a leader is absolutely required. When I help someone else with a quest I don't have/have already completed. That person automatically becomes leader in my book. We do the quests at his pace, not mine, because I want him to get the most enjoyment out of his quest. If he wants to blast through I follow his lead and we blast through. If he wants to read each quest through and clear each part completely, that's what we do. Also, he gets first dibs on any loot that drops, whether he can use it or not. To say "I don't have much time so let me just run you through" is cheating him out of an experience he may have wanted. Quests should never be done at the pace of the helper, but at the one looking to complete it. That being said, a trip to town every 30 seconds because you find 3 herbs or a copper mine and you just must smelt it, or standing around for long periods of time inexplicably going afk could get tedious. The quester setting the pace obviously (and to most people would be considered common sense) doesn't give license to purposely drag out a quest by any means available.
I'll leave it there. Already been up way too long. Take care. Eonwë
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Post by Alatar on Feb 13, 2005 15:38:03 GMT -5
Maglor, some guilds don't need to talk about grouping with each other - they simply do it. And when grouped, they don't need to spend a lot of time talkin about what they will be doing, because they have done it together since the first time they grouped and they know instinctivly what their team will be doing.
If you mean to tell me that your guild members NEVER discussed strategy - EVER - before doing something, I would find my credulity strained to the point of breaking.
Eonwe, I understand that the policy of requiring guild members to aid each other is onerous. My DAOC alliance on Gaheris requires it at a guild level, and frankly it's the only thing that keeps the givers and takers balanced. This guild may not require it, if it decides to become purposeful about gathering together in game. It comes naturally, then. One of the wonderful things about WoW is that most of the truly stunning items come from a fixed quest, or from a fixed mob, and the worst that might be required - for you and I BOTH to have an item - is to run some battle over again. Anyway, it was a suggestion designed to provoke thought.
My son and I rolled up two gnomes on Lothar yesterday, Goldir and Alatarr (warlock and mage), and we played for six straight hours together. Had an absolute blast. But, we're sitting next to each other in the same room. That's the ultimate "party" experience, when I can call out "wolf, to the left" and he can say "okay" - all without typing. Regardless, it was confirmed to me once again that this is a wonderful game, played together.
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Post by Maglor on Feb 14, 2005 3:32:53 GMT -5
If you mean to tell me that your guild members NEVER discussed strategy - EVER - before doing something, I would find my credulity strained to the point of breaking. What I'm saying is pretty much the same as Gwaihir stated on another thread: we spent a little bit beforehand explaining what we were going to see and do in the instance and, well, after that we all knew what we were doing.... if nobody knew the instance...we just all stuck together and played it by ear All I'm trying to say is that when I was playing WoW with the Valar Guild some people were being overly authoritative and acting like they knew better than everyone else. Whether it be a guild strategy or any other issue, I believe that the authoritative tone these people were taking was unnecessary and somewhat presumptuous. Having some well defined boundaries is necessary in a guild, especially one that is meant to be a mature and friendly one, but outlining everything to a T and treating everyone else like they don't know anything goes beyond that point. Maglor
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Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Post by Elatan on Feb 14, 2005 9:28:13 GMT -5
I have been following this thread and I became a bit worried. It is a long time since I last played with any Valar member but the issues Alatar brought up reminded me of several other occasions I witnessed or were in while playing outside the guild in Euro. Anyway, as the thread grew I saw Alatar coming up with the same solutions/idears I have learned. I was trying to write down alot about these but I could not have done it better than Alatar. If we want the guild to survive in WoW and eventually grow we simply need to play together. To do that people have to move around, guildhunts of all kinds have to be arranged ( meaning someone have to take the initiative to do it ) and the rest have to meet up for it laying their own business aside and play a bit for the benefit of the guild. I acknowledge there are posts here telling something is done, I am just stressing it is so importent to keep on doing it simply because there is no meaning being in a guild you do not benefit from in any way. Okay - thoughts on what we can do. 1. A guild must have recognized leaders. They must be strong leaders. Our leadership is recognized, but in their desire to be gentle and allow all members to pursue their own agendas, many times they are perceived (by me, at least) to be passive. Leadership must be assertive and clear. When a guildmaster speaks, guild members respond or they are no longer guild members. By the same token, guild members must know they can go to a guildmaster with some expectation of receiving a serious audience. ~ Alatar I will agree that the leader/s needs to be strong in the sence of making things happen and take the decision and stand with it but not if you also mean its the leaders birthborn right to have it "My way or the highway" regardless of others opinion. The good GM listens, are open to suggestions and discussions. I have, in my experience of a couple years as officer and later GM in DaoC and Co-GM seen too many guilds break apart because of a GM an/or officers being too selfwilled and proud. Okay - thoughts on what we can do. 2. A guild must have a core of dedicated members who consistently subjugate their own interests to the interests of the guild and its members. Selfless behavior is at the core of Tolkienesque values, we above all should aspire to it. 3. A guild must offer its members something of value in the game as a reward, before it can ask its members to live up to standards or face the penalty of removal from the guild. You must have the carrot before you can brandish the stick. I have these suggestions: A. Guild Group Times. Designated times published to all guild members where it is known that groups will be formed of guild members with the express purpose of helping each other accomplish quests. MOST OF THE TIME, this will mean those who are elder putting aside their own advancement and helping the younger members with quests that the elders have done before and would likely wish to never do again. But if you take the long view, this will eventually result in having MORE elder members who can then band together and tackle the ELDER quests, as a guild. Given the number of skilled Euro players we have, I think we should look for weekend middays (US eastern times) for these slots. B. Guild Crafting. When guild members reach milestones - I would suggest every ten levels - they should be given such aid in craft skills as the guild has available to them. Make it a "Tens Celebration," akin to a birthday party. We gather at the designated guild gathering spot (we need to pick one of those also...Ironforge might be a good choice) and help our guildmates get outfitted for their next ten levels. I recognize this penalizes the highest level characters, who do all the crafting and have no one able to craft for them - at FIRST - but crafting skills are unrelated to level and you may be surprised how soon this changes. As the guild gets larger, it is not possible to have these in an ad hoc manner. So we begin holding them at designated times, and if you have incremented your tens digit in level since the last celebration, you're a guest of honor at that one. My paladin was working hard at advancing his herbalism and alchemy skill, and I would be more than happy to go herb hunting for an hour or so to make a lovely selection of potions for someone's celebration. C. Guild Accountability. Each guild member, regardless of rank, should be asked to aid one other guild member in some way, each week. They will be required to give account of this aid, perhaps in these forums. Guild members who receive aid and never give it will be counseled, then warned, and finally removed from the guild. How may lower level characters aid higher level characters? It may indeed be that elders are so self-sufficient that they cannot be aided. But all in the guild can do SOMETHING to aid others. A thread can be stickied with each person's offer of help being posted. People needing that kind of help can send a PM requesting it, once it's given then the one providing the aid has satisfied their requirement and may give their account. If once a week aid is too much, then once every two weeks will be fine. ~ Alatar This idear of being forced to help a lower level I am not too keen about. I realize the good thoughts and the idear but I would rather have it was of totally free will. Eventually as something the guild as a whole recommend but the minut you begin to force people to take certain actions you may begin build up a system of billing eachother. I aided you, now you owe me one or I will post a flame against you. One may say it is in the guilds foundation to aid and help eachother in good fellowship. If I am right we play to have fun playing with eachother. It is not the end of the journey that is fun, it is the road towards the end. Maybe we just need to remind ourselves and eachother what we are and then be a good rolemodel. Okay - thoughts on what we can do. D. Guild Values. The guild's values in game should be clearly defined. I said before that I thought the values of the Fellowship were Loyalty, Honor, Courage, and Duty. We should decide what we consider the list to actually be, and those should become the Valar Guild's identity. All guild members are required to live up to them or face removal from the guild. Now, let me answer in advance some anticipated questions. "This places all the burden on elder characters. We have our own business to be about." Yes, it does require elders to take the long view. Elders cannot be aided by youngers, for the most part. But youngers will BECOME elders, with aid, and if aided along the path will be determined to return that aid to the elders who aided them. In other words, the aid a level 40 offers to a level 10 now will ensure that same level 40 of having level 60 raiding partners when he's in need of them later. WE MUST TAKE THE LONG VIEW. "This doesn't sound like fun. I am playing to have fun." Starting a guild IS work. No question. Guilds are fun once they're established and running smoothly. But, and I guarantee you of this, every guild that is functional today had members who buried their own in game agendas in the early days. The rewards of a mature, seasoned guild, loyal to each other and skilled in playing together are COUNTLESS. I've seen it, I'm sure of it, and I believe it can happen here in WOW. "Too much talk. Kill more stuff." Everyone in the Valar Guild - and everyone who groups with us - must be prepared for talk before action. We are all frustrated with people who run off half-thingyed and get the group killed. PATIENT PLAY WILL BE REQUIRED. When the group leader calls for a strategy break, we all stop and discuss strategy with him or her. If a group member is unclear on their role and wishes to ask about it, we pause and explain it again. "You're a pompous jerk. Do you really think this will work?" Yes, I AM a pompous jerk. Thanks for noticing! Do I think it will work? ABSOLUTELY. The number one best recruiting tool a guild has is for other players to see groups with multiple guild players in it. That's the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and it doesn't matter which MMOG you're discussing. Who knows? We may become so winsome as a guild that people get turned on to Tolkien just to become a part of us! Anyhow, these are just SUGGESTIONS and I encourage you to use them as seed for the growth of your own thoughts on the matter. I find myself at the moment perplexed at the thought that for the Valar Guild to be a good guild "in game," I have to recruit new people - but I can't recruit people to a guild that I wouldn't want to be a part of if I wasn't already. Catch-22. WOW has given us the tools, folks. In DAOC, if a level 50 even TOUCHED the mob that a level 10 was fighting, it was game over. No XP, no loot, no quest completion. WOW is not this way. A level 60 can help a level 5 complete a quest. The level 60 gets nothing out of it, but the level 5 still does fine. It's up to us. Will we use this tool? I'll watch these forums for discussion. ~ Alatar Well said.
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Varda
Vala, Council
Posts: 1,042
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Post by Varda on Feb 14, 2005 19:04:21 GMT -5
"If we want the guild to survive in WoW and eventually grow we simply need to play together. To do that people have to move around, guildhunts of all kinds have to be arranged ( meaning someone have to take the initiative to do it ) and the rest have to meet up for it laying their own business aside and play a bit for the benefit of the guild. "
Quite right, Elatan. To that end, we are doing the Gryphon Run Event next weekend, coming to the meeting and setting up there, then jumping to WoW. Some of us are getting ready for it during the week. We will be trying to give everyone as many gryphon flight paths as possible, needing help from guides and tough escorts, and people telling us where the gryphon points are. Some of our members are quite young and easily slaughtered, so help is needed. This should help us reach each other more easily for future grouping and general fun.
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Post by Eonwë on Feb 14, 2005 20:53:24 GMT -5
Ack I put Friday on the Guild MotD. I'll change that quickly.
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