Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Looting
Sept 12, 2005 4:01:26 GMT -5
Post by Elatan on Sept 12, 2005 4:01:26 GMT -5
Heyas, Brand new topic that probably will cause some - errm - rumble. Yesterday I tried to make a little test, I thought I already knew what it would show, but I had to convince myself I was right. I have to say it is an observation in generel and not aimed towards any character, char, trade or skill. It is simply as it is with the looting-rules and I am not going to play with it anymore as I struggle just as hard as everyone else to play, pay and level my chars. I do not have an enchanter and that is the problem. As an enchanter you can claim, roll for (call it what you like) any item not going to "someone that really needs and will wear it item" That means 3/4 if not much more of coloured drops will go to any enchanter leaving the last item to be rolled for by the remaining 4 players AND the enchanter IF he can wear it. That is simply far from fair. Any item represents a value, for the enchanter he can get some matherials out of it and use those (he could even sell it or pass it to an alternative char of his though that would be against the spirit) If he could`nt he would have to buy it or find it alone. For the others it represents a selling price which he could use to buy some matherials instead of dragging gold from the money-drop everyone in a group share equally. I have yet to have free enchants from any enchanters. That would be the only reason I can see partly justify the free grab. I and everyone else needs the silver and gold from those drops just as much for our skills and trade. The only difference is we have to sell it first. Just for the example, yesterday I came out of Gnomeregan after 6 hours with 1 item that would be an upgrade, I could use it and I was lucky enough to win between 3 rollers (one was enchanter) 4 grey items + 1 white for selling, some silk and a little woll and some in cash as everyone else. During those hours quite so many greens dropped and to follow the standing rules I had to pass on 90% while enchanters could, and did, rolled for 90% I only see this strange rule in guild grps and I am done with it. From now on I roll for anything not going to someone who can and will wear it unless they can come up with some good reasons to maintain that standard. It will help me in my skills and trades. A last notice about grps. It would be so nice if looting dead mobs was done AFTER the fight and not while the fight still goes on. That would give people a chance to actually see whats picked or rolled for and give the whole grp a better chance to survive
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Looting
Sept 13, 2005 1:05:31 GMT -5
Post by Eonwë on Sept 13, 2005 1:05:31 GMT -5
Item types : Grey- low quality White-common Green- uncommon Blue- rare Purple- Epic
Terms: BoE - Bind on Equip BoP- Bind on Pickup
The looting rules we've been using in groups for the last several months (a while, but admittedly not all the way back to the beginning) is as follows:
-------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.) If the item is a Green BoE item, everyone rolls. If the item is an upgrade to someone's current suit and they lose the roll, the person can ask for the item and it's theirs (but try to spread the upgrades around if there's more than one person who can get an upgrade. I've had no problems with this so far in Guild groups.) This speeds up the process and solves most if not all issues. Green BoE items past a certain point are mostly fodder anyway, so real time doesn't need to be taken out from the questing to see if it's good. If you lose the roll and it's an upgrade, just speak up. Just gotta look long enough to see if it's BoE or BoP (but try not to hit the dead bodies in mid-battle. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but try to avoid it :})
2.)If the item is a BoP item of any color or a Blue (or higher) BoE item, all pass and we see who actually needs it. If more than one person can use the item as an upgrade to their suit, then those people roll on the item, with the winner getting it. If the item is not an upgrade to anyone, then everyone rolls to sell/disenchant/keepsake/do whatever with it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
The key is that people who actually need the item to improve their suit get first dibs. Everything else, everyone gets a fair shot at.
That is interesting that you would run into this problem in Guild groups, as I've been sure to mention this rule anytime I've grouped with someone I wasn't sure would know what I've stated above. Even the way we were trying it in the beginning wasn't meant to give all items to enchanters. You really should've been done with whatever strange rule that was a while ago :}
The only time I really pass on green BoEs is when I have very limited inventory space (i.e., enough for quest items and an actual upgrade, but not much more), and even when I do roll and win I'm sure to mention "Just yell if it's an upgrade," which anyone who's grouped with me is likely to hear at least once per group.
I agree that anyone can put an item to use as well as any enchanter. I've also heard from enchanters how expensive the profession is. I've been known to send a few items towards some of the enchanters I know to help them out, but yeah, roll on the green BoE's and take your chance to get some money Elatan. In case any of you enchanters are concerned, this looting system was suggested by an enchanter :}
I offer my blacksmithing services for free to any guild member, so long as I have the materials. If I don't have the materials, I simply wait until I do and then offer my blacksmithing services for free. Sometimes I just make potions with my Priest and send them to people I know have been on recently and could use them. One time, I decided to hold Tolkien Trivia in the Guild channel and hand out potions as prizes :} Simply put, I don't make any Guild members pay me to make something for them. Helping eachother helps the Guild. Everyone needs to remember that.
Speaking of which, let me know if I can smith anything for you, Elatan :}
I hope this has addressed your concerns, and if not, well, we can keep this chat up for as long as it takes :}
Take care :} Eonwë
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Looting
Sept 13, 2005 11:42:42 GMT -5
Post by arathorn on Sept 13, 2005 11:42:42 GMT -5
I am utterly flabbergasted that you say you didn't get many loots in the Gnomeregan run Elatan. I passed on most things that dropped since I didn't require much so only the remainder would have been rolling. Also, the only mention of an item for an enchanter that I recall was a BOP item that no one required. In that case it should be rolled on for fodder (ie for the winner to sell). You can't simply get and item because you want it to sell it, that's hardly fair. If you win the fodder roll then it's yours to do with as you wish. In this case IF the item was DE'd the DE'd item could be rolled on or given to someone who could use it. As it was, Grimbold said the material that would result wasn't worth disenchanting .. at that point no one took the object that was sitting there even after several 'does any one want it now' statements. That might be where the confusion was, maybe you missed that. Personally I think within the group we shouldn't bother with disenchanting items in a run unless we all agree to it and roll on the item after. But again you shouldn't just get the item to sell unless no one else wants to roll for it for fodder.
As for looting during battle, I'm not sure who you saw doing that because I surely don't and I know Grimbold loathes battle looting. If anything someone most likely attacked a new mob before the looting on the old one was done, which in itself is annoying.
I also don't believe in an enchanter getting an object no one else wants and that was not the case in this run. The BOP object was the only one we spent far too much time with because enchanting was mentioned, I'm sorry it was brought up at all. We should have just rolled on it as fodder and the winner could sell it or mount it on his wall, whatever. I don't remember any greens being sent to a specific person that didn't need it or win a roll for it.
As for guild help, I am constantly helping other members with either items, materials and even enchant mats or aid in quests and have offered professions as Auros and others do (i.e. any profession given that the materials are currently available, else materials are farmed when time permits).
I think if anything should be discussed after that run is why we only had 4 people to finish it. I would comment here but I don't see it as the venue and am frankly still miffed about it, as you well know.
In any case, if you require anything from the guild re items or materials I'm sure we can work on getting them within reason (certain enchants or specific drops are trickier because not all items are readily available or obtainable no matter how much you play, believe me :-P). Many high end items can only be obtained from high end runs which up to now can only be done in pickup groups as we do not have enough high players that can get online for long enough at the same time. I myself have characters requiring help on some tough quests but having so many chars I defer asking too often as it even annoys me to be doing the same quest again and again =P Although I'm not sure I agree that my having all classes puts me at the back of the line when it comes to being helped... I still hold issue with that. Those characters are used when required to help other members when they make a better fit (or for their professions).
Seems to me we need to get together as a group to discuss what people require so we can work out what to accumulate. The problem is not everyone can make the Sunday meeting (this week we missed because the run was partway through) and not many people have been able to make the Friday get togethers at the same time (I myself have a 2 hour period where I am unavailable at that time). I've sent a bunch of stuff to Auros who has been distributing or storing it but without knowing specifically what people need that's a tough call I'm sure. Eowyn made a good suggestion and said to use the IN game mail system to mail Auros or Varda (or me if you want, since I've been on a lot) with requests.
As an example: A couple times this week, Turambar asked about a mechanical squirrel schema but unfortunately the extra one I had I believe I had sent to Auros (if not I gave it to another guild mate), but he wasn't online this week to see if I had or not. I tried farming it at one point but it is a rare drop.. BUT luckily a good samaritan in IF gave one to Turin for free when he inquired about it =) (o btw, it wasn't on the AH either telling you how rare it is) So, although we didn't get it for him the attempt was made, that's all that can be asked of anyone. One also has to learn patience in getting something, we don't have an epic item warehouse ;-P
Regarding enchants: Talk to me next time you see me, I can do a number of them with my Rogue character AND have offered both online and in the forum (perhaps you weren't around when I have or haven't read the posts as to who can enchant and approached them and asked them) but unless we make a conscious effort to get the enchanting character to the character that needs it, how can one enchant? I have yet to learn the "enchant by mind-reading and telekinesis" skill.
What it boils down to is we can't give what we don't know someone needs. And we can't give what we currently don't have, of course. It isn't all done by wizardry no matter the game lore.
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Elatan
Tolkien-Only Member
Vala
Elatan
Posts: 230
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Looting
Sept 14, 2005 2:52:40 GMT -5
Post by Elatan on Sept 14, 2005 2:52:40 GMT -5
The Gnomeregan run was picked as example because it was the latest, not because any or all members of the group looted as they did.
I may be way to naive not to roll on anything there is a far chance I perhaps could think I maybe once could use but I do not roll on an item I can not use or actually think I will use, I pass on everything that is not cloth within guildgroups regardless I may think the leather/mail/plate is plain fodder which no one will use and I pass on cloth I know I would sell.
I will roll for anything BoE regardless stats and if someone wants it they can ask me for it. It seems to be the standing rule I missed.
I can not, following the fact it was in a fight, tell who may have been looting but a couple times the dices came up. It would be nice not to have that screen in the middle of ones viev and have everyones attention until it is over. The loot remains for quite some time. That is all there is to it.
Arathorn : As for helping in quests or general aid I have noticed what you do. The case was if I leave all the drops to enchanters a form of payback could be expected. But that is not an issue anymore because I will grab what I can and I feel better with paying for what I need.
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Looting
Sept 14, 2005 23:03:02 GMT -5
Post by Eonwë on Sept 14, 2005 23:03:02 GMT -5
I edited my above post to make the Looting rules stand out a bit more.
Take care. Eonwë
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Varda
Vala, Council
Posts: 1,042
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Looting
Sept 16, 2005 8:56:29 GMT -5
Post by Varda on Sept 16, 2005 8:56:29 GMT -5
Concerning free enchants, for everyone, not just speaking to Elatan who brings up a good question that may be on other's minds as well: My Varda character is willing to give free enchants, especially to guild members, whenever I have the materials. I understand that my level is low; I've been turned down so often (mainly non-guild) that I'm shy about offering. I would like to skill up, so ask! Like any character who makes things, I may not have the materials on me at the moment for the enchant desired. Nevertheless, I do carry a bag full of enchant materials at all times, and can usually do something, or save up stuff to do it later the same as any other craftsman. Linqil has been generous with his high level enchants, but the materials for those are as expensive and hard to get as for any of the high level armor or weapon makers. It just looks easy. Arathorn's enchanter also gives free enchants, when able. I'm not sure who else is an enchanter, but just ask when with us and I'm sure we'll give it try. If an item is not soul bound and can be WoWmailed, we can enchant it and WoWmail it back to the person. I have always agreed that enchanters should get disenchant items the same way as everyone else gets fodder, hoping hard that some high level "junk" will come our way for higher level dust. People sometimes give us items to disenchant, often by WoWmail, and that is much appreciated! Can you hear the Woot! sound at the mailbox clear to the other continent? Ah, well, probably not, but it's there! If we disenchanted every item we picked up, we could never train or buy "recipes". We usually have another job to support as well, such as my tailoring. Something has to go in the sales pot, too, so folks, please bear with us as we fumble along, learning. Happy hunting!
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Looting
Sept 16, 2005 13:32:56 GMT -5
Post by arathorn on Sept 16, 2005 13:32:56 GMT -5
FYI: The new patch introduces a nice new loot feature:
Now you have a NEED *and* a GREED button (along with 'cancel' should you not wish to roll), *SO* if it's an upgrade for you, choose 'need' while someone who would just use it for fodder or enchanting would choose 'greed'. In that case the need winner would get the item. Of course this assumes people are only clicking 'need' when they really need it as an upgrade, heh. This will lessen (if not eliminate) requirements to have to say you didn't win an upgrade roll and would like the item. ;D
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