Saturday 11/26/2011 Raid (12-man) Skirmishes

[Miriel]

Next run this Saturday, November 26th at 1:00PM EST!

Skirmishes to be run:
Tuckborough
Battle in the Tower
Breaching the Necromancer's Gate

*The raid skirmish challenge resets only once a week early morning Thursdays, 3:00AM EST

It is appreciated if those able or unable to attend would post a response in this thread.

General Requests
Please be on time and prepared with morale/mana potions, appropriate food, scrolls etc.
Commit to paying attention.
Be considerate of everyone's effort. Practice makes for success & failures teach us what to improve upon.
Keep all loot discussion and opinions in the "Loot: Raid (12-man) Skirmishes" post not during runs. The run times are for running and working on our tactics.
Keep afks to a minimum, limited to collective afk breaks.
Keep it friendly, keep it fun!

[Varda]

On this last run on the 19th, two things marred the otherwise good fun. Sadly I was one of the culprits and don't want this precedent to continue into future games including the one upcoming on the 26th.

I won the only Symbol of Celebrimbor that dropped and handed it to Melkor who seems to never win anything. This was wrong. I should have kept it or passed it to the next highest roll, which I am told was Nimrodel's. I was not trying to "scoop" it as someone has suggested, but had hesitated due to side window talking and uncertainty whether I should take it, since I had won one in a raid outside the kin the previous day. I apologize to all and intend to call that my roll for this round and wait my turn for the second round.

The second problem was that we had a member who won a unique then rolled again on the next unique although others wanted it too. We should have said he could not do that and simply not awarded it to him. I should have said something at that point and did not.

Please consider this learning and let it go. We intend to do better next time.

[pippin]

oh, ooops, I did not even realize I had done that. You all know that I am not one to go hoarding loot. Heck, often, I barely even try for it. Next time, just remind me, and I'll let it go. I didn't have to have it right then, I just rolled better than I usually do. -Pippin

[Miriel]

Varda said:

I won the only Symbol of Celebrimbor that dropped and handed it to Melkor who seems to never win anything. This was wrong. I should have kept it or passed it to the next highest roll, which I am told was Nimrodel's. I was not trying to "scoop" it as someone has suggested, but had hesitated due to side window talking and uncertainty whether I should take it, since I had won one in a raid outside the kin the previous day. I apologize to all and intend to call that my roll for this round and wait my turn for the second round.

This was my error. Looting is a big responsibility and getting loot correct every week is what I should work harder on. I apologize and will make a serious effort to be more mindful. There is no need for Varda to call that as her roll for this round.
Nimrodel's Ardisian has been sent a Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor via in-game mail. Congratulation Nimrodel!

I look forward to seeing you all this Saturday.

[Irmo]

Admiring the way Varda and Miriel stepped up to take responsibility, and not in any way wanting to dispute the outcome, I feel the need at this point to post a word of warning.

We are a community, not a bureaucracy.

If Varda would have accepted the WSC as loot, then decided to sell it to a vendor or give it away to Tom Bombadil to throw away, it would have been within the rules. Ergo, If Varda would have accepted the WSC as loot, then decided to mail it to Melkor, it would also have been within the rules. But by formally appointing the loot as Melkor's - materially with the same result - it was not within the rules? Bah. We are not a bureaucracy!

As to Pip, it was quite clear that nobody - Pip included - really wanted the first item. His roll was a halfhearted one. Of course Murphy's Law applied and he really wanted the second item. Of course he rolled for that. Who could within reason have any objections to that? Bah. We are not a bureaucracy.

Unlike bureaucrats, caring community members could not possibly have had any objections to how loot was handled in both cases. I support the steps taken by the organisation, but regret the necessity of same steps.

Come on folks! Remember what we are about! Relax and smell the humus. Loot is not even important enough to whisper about to falling leaves, let alone among ourselves. We are better than that.

[melkor]

Melkor will be occupied with family doin''s on Sat so he will sadly be unable to participate in the fun! Good Luck to all, may symbols rain upon thy heads...grin.

[nimrodel]

Thank you all so much for the symbol. While it was very much unexpected, as well as unnecessary, it is very much appreciated. I only hope I can do justice to your gracious gesture with Ardisian's new bow.

Varda, I just wanted to tell you I was not really upset with you about the whole thing. It was more like a temporary "bummed out" because, after many Melkor-worthy rolls that day, I thought for a few seconds I had actually won it. Then your roll was better and I was like "Oh Man!!!" But, in spite of initial disappointment, I know you won it fair and square and I completely agree with Irmo that is was yours to do with however you chose. And I can certainly think of no better recipient than Melkor. ( much better than giving it to old Tom )

Irmo - I very much like your comment: Loot is not even important enough to whisper about to falling leaves, let alone among ourselves. Very nicely said
Anyway, that leads me to the point of the discussion, as least from my perspective.

I also agree that Pippin's having won one teal item should not preclude him from winning another. Some teal items are "more teal" than others, lol. And the second was apparently much more desirable than the first. I'm not really sure though, because fortunately for all, I don't have Miriel's unenviable job of Loot Master and i wasn't totally paying attention to that part once i saw it was melee. Anyway, to me, the point of the conversation wasn't about Pip's rolling on a second item. It was whether or not the whole issue of alt vs. mains has been resolved. (and if so, i missed it and what was the decision) Because from what I remember, Pippin was on an alt, Fearus and at least 2 people on mains, Gildor and Hurin, also rolled on the item. But like the issue Ulmo previously brought up, Pippin was on an alt because the kin asked him to be, at least for the first run.

So do mains still have precedence and it only goes to an alt if the main toons pass, or has that been changed? Has the "Ulmo Amendment" been added, ie. If the kin asked for the alt, then they can roll? That is basically what I am trying to figure out.

It's really unfortunate that the game kicks you out of the instance so quickly, because I'm sure these things could easily be resolved if it weren't for the stressful time limit. There is no way Maha should be expected to remember who has won what, who is on an alt, etc. And I know you have asked to try to keep loot discussions here instead of in game, which is why I didn't ask the alt vs, main thing while you were looting. Anyway, I'm not sure if there is any really good solution out there, other than to maybe have a quick chat before the instance, when we see who is there and on what toon, about who still needs stuff for their main, who feels pretty set, and whether or not an alt should roll or wait to see if the main toons pass.

The reason i am asking is because my champ will be 75 in a week or so, and at some point if she gets to come along I want to know what to do.
Anyway, as far as I am concerned, Ardisian is very well set now thanks to you all and I have no problem passing on gear in favor of other hunters, main or alt. Likewise, if my champ is lucky enough to come along, I certainly don't mind passing in favor of any main who still needs things. It's fun just to play and the Sup 4ths are a great reward. But, the problem is how to know this beforehand, because if the mains are all set, then of course I'd like to roll (look out Faerus

Thanks again for all you do to get the runs together and running smoothly.

[Miriel]

Very elegant post Nim. I think we can call this all wrapped up now?

It was whether or not the whole issue of alt vs. mains has been resolved.

Just for future reference: This has been resolved in "Topic: Loot: Raid (12-man) Skirmishes"
valarguild.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=raiding&action=display&thread=1112
*If the raid-leader requests someone change from the Main to an Alt for the good of the raid, that Alt will for that requested time be treated as a Main, unless he/she asks not to be.

Sadly changes become a bit buried, but I have tried to update the main post with any changes. Sadly we are not all-seeing, changes may continue to happen as the need arises. Keep your eyes on that post.

[nimrodel]

Ahh, thank you for the quick answer I had missed that. I have been trying to read the new posts when I can, but had missed that update.

On to bigger and better things, as of now, I should be able to come this Saturday but unfortunately Gildor will not. He will be taking his mother back to the airport during that time and so another tanky type will be needed. Thanks!

[pippin]

oh no, and here I was hoping to return to Avenge too. I will wait to see what happens as my life is kinda up in the air right now and I believe I'll be there, but shouldn't really fully commit, just in case. -Pippin

[Varda]

Agreed, Pippin was asked to bring his alt instead of his main since Irmo's guardian could not be present. Therefore his alt gained main status for the run. This will be true again since Gildor's guardian main will not be available for this coming Saturday. He will once again have an alt running as a main.

During the last run, the first roll by Pippin was on a unique vendor trash that only one other person rolled on. No one needed it. He was not all that thrilled to win it. (I remembered this later, and found others remembered it the same way.)

The second roll was a cloak that a few people wanted, making this a genuine unique loot roll. Pippin did ask if it was ok to roll and was assured it was ok, which it was. He won the roll.

Getting these things straightened out now means we'll have smoother runs in the future.

[pippin]

so folks know, I have a 4pm est orientation with my new job, so I will only be able to tank the 1st 2 runs at best. I will have to bow out around 3pm, so if we start latish because we don't have enough (which seems possible this week due to holidays), then I may not be able to finish the 2nd run unless things go smoothly. Just a heads up