Loot: Raid (12-man) Skirmishes

[Miriel]

This is a work in progress, but I have attempted to place a table with loot - Worn Symbols of Celebrimbor earned by week. Let us also us this post to discuss loot rules.

Loot
We are all mature people and can work together to help our guild members. Mistakes may happen and I ask all to be forgiving. The game does not end tomorrow and I do not think any will fall defeated at their keyboard if we don't get our "shiny new items" right now.

-Worn Symbols of Celebrimbor
Current plan (10/19/2011): To allow every Valar Guild member able to attend the raid runs 1 Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor.
This will be tracked by Guild Name, not character/account. This means the first Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor that drops will be rolled on by all. The winners then pass on all future Worn Symbols of Celebrimbor until each Valar Guild member has acquired.
If a person gets the Symbol in a run outside the Saturday run, it is also outside the Saturday tracking.
Please also note the Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor is not bound and can be traded/sold.

-Gear Drops
Current plan (10/26/2011): I must ask all to declare a "Main" Character to be played. These characters will be eligible for gear drops.
Any alts/sub characters will not eligible unless no other main character during that run wants the item. I feel the need for this rule since some have many characters and it is no fun for those that are unlucky with rolls to have to wait for alts to be outfitted because the luck of the dice is not in their favor.
If the raid-leader requests someone change from the Main to an Alt for the good of the raid, that Alt will for that requested time be treated as a Main, unless he/she asks not to be.
Alts (non-mains that are kinned) get to roll if the mains don't need the item. If no one desires the item, it goes to an everybody roll for vendoring.
Mains of Valar Guild members that are not kinned are treated as any other Valar Guild members. (Examples of already declared mains: Bofur's Dagr, Nob's Elenrandir, Halbarad's Boronind, Indis' Alasse. Also, outside helpers with no kin name are considered mains)

**IN the event that I can not attend a Saturday, Raid (12-man) Skirmish, would the winner of the Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor please send an in-game mail to Mahariel.

ROUND 2

Name	Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor
Annael (Rhonia, 75 champion)	-
Cirdan (Menarus, 75 hunter)	-
Celeborn (Kebb, 75 champion)	-
Eomer (Erkendan, 75 captain)	-
Galdor (Andwe, 75 hunter)	WSoC 3/31/2012
Gildor (Marrella, 75 guardian)	-
Gorlim (Aeronwy, 75 minstrel)	-
Hurin (Hiurred, 75 captain)	-
Indis (Alasse, 75 lore-master)	WSoC 4/21/2012
Irmo (Irmogar, 75 guardian)	WSoC 3/17/2012
Miriel (Mahariel, 75 minstrel)	WSoC 3/17/2012
Melkor (Passim, 75 rune-keeper)	-
Nellas (Nimeithel, 75 warden)	-
Nimrodel (Ardisian, 75 hunter)	WSoC 3/31/2012
Orome (Oromdur, 75 burglar)	-
Pippin (Avengelina, 75 champion)	-
Thranduil (Artemis, 75 burglar)	-
Tulkas (Astald, 75 hunter)	-
Varda (Fainan, 75 hunter)	-
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-

ROUND 1 Completed 3/17/2012

Name	Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor
Annael (Rhonia, 75 champion)	-
Cirdan (Menarus, 75 hunter)	WSoC 11/12/2011
Celeborn (Kebb, 75 champion)	WSoC 12/3/2011
Eomer (Erkendan, 75 captain)	WSoC 1/21/2012
Galdor (Andwe, 75 hunter)	WSoC 3/3/2012
Gildor (Marrella, 75 guardian)	WSoC 3/2012
Gorlim (Aeronwy, 75 minstrel)	WSoC 1/7/2012
Hurin (Hiurred, 75 captain)	WSoC 3/17/2012
Indis (Alasse, 75 lore-master)	WSoC 12/10/2011
Irmo (Irmogar, 75 guardian)	WSoC 10/22/2011
Miriel (Mahariel, 75 minstrel)	WSoC 11/5/2011
Melkor (Passim, 75 rune-keeper)	-
Nellas (Nimeithel, 75 warden)	-
Nimrodel (Ardisian, 75 hunter)	-
Orome (Oromdur, 75 burglar)	WSoC 11/12/2011
Pippin (Avengelina, 75 champion)	WSoC 10/29/2011
Thranduil (Artemis, 75 burglar)	-
Tulkas (Astald, 75 hunter)	-
Varda (Fainan, 75 hunter)	WSoC 11/19/2011
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-
Name	-

Keep it friendly, keep it fun!

[Galdor-ex2010-2012]

In response to something that came up in discussion before the last raid we did (Amon Sul), where Ulmo inquired about alts and looting. While I agree with Ulmo'slogic about "if an alt is needed for the raid, they should be able to grab the good loot regardless of whether the main already received loot previously", I'd be remiss if I did not point out a big reality about this kin: We are small interms of the number of kinmates who are on at one time. The fact that we are even discussing this is remarkable in the sense that we can have 12 Valar Guildmates on at the same time. In my time with the kin, I've found that number to be tough to achieve, let alone, at a level necessary to run together.

Maha's comment about limitting loots to mains until everyone's main has their fair share of loot seems reasonable for the previously mentioned reasons. If we were a dedicated raiding kin, or we had 12 people on regularly, I believe Ulmo's feeling about alts would be most appropriate.

I'd also like to point out that there are numerous PUG's that run these regularly with experienced players leading them. I plan to run my alts on as many as I can and keep my main ready to finish my looting, and no less important, assist my kinmates in getting their mains upto "finished looting" status. I see it as: we are friends first and that needs to be the focus. If someone's not happy helping kinmates, what are they doing in this kin and why are they playing with us?

[Eonwë]

Thought I should add my two cents since I have a few moments to post.

Concerning the top one-of-a-kind token drop, I agree it's fair enough to go 1 for each Member before anyone gets a second.

For gear drops, I'm not sure it's necessary to track on more than a run-by-run basis. As long as everyone within a single run gets a fair enough shot at gear upgrades, that should be sufficient.

For alts, I personally would not generally ask members to switch from their main to an alt for a run, but in the event someone *was* asked to do it, I tend to agree that the alt should be able to benefit in some way from the run. Limiting the top-end token drop by Member rather than by character helps some in that, in that a person can bring any character and still have a shot at that particular item (if they haven't won it already). If the case is someone *decided* to bring an alt, I suppose favoring mains over alts is one thing, but if the raid leader *asks*, then that can be a stickier situation, and the alt should be able to benefit.


I would also like to stress that the goal in any looting policy should not be to satisfy simply for one run, or a run with a single raid leader, but it should be a fair policy that can be adopted in all similar runs as policy for the entire kinship, and set securely in our virtues and policies as the Valar Guild. For that, I will be satisfied so long as Varda signs off on it.

[Varda]

Miriel is working with several Valar including myself to try to work out a fair system for Saturday 12-mans. She is making thiis post at my request. The system is still a work in progress, as Miriel said. Here's the five main points that we currently have:

1. Declare a main. (Mine's Fainan.) No you can't have two mains. (Sorry to Tinwetari, my minstrel.)

2. If there's loot that your Main would actually wear, you get the first roll for it in a run at the same time as other Mains who would actually wear it.

Alts (non-mains that are kinned and outside helpers with no kin name are considered alts) get to roll if the mains don't need the item. If no one desires the item, it goes to an everybody roll for vendoring. Type /roll

Mains of Valar Guild members that are not kinned are treated as any other Valar Guild members. (Examples of already declared mains: Bofur's Dagr, Nob's Elenrandir, Halbarad's Boronind, Indis' Alasse.)

Keeping track of all the drops on the forum is too much of a nightmare at this time both for paperwork and because of the short length of time the game currently gives for looting. We are thrown out of the instance not long after it ends even with the chest open on Master Loot.
Simply put: be thoughtful of others, something that hardly needs to be said to you folks.

3. If the raid-leader requests someone change from the Main to an Alt for the good of the raid, that Alt will for that requested time be treated as a Main, unless he/she asks not to be.

4. The Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor is for a personal kin name, such as Merry-(V), not a character, such as Kalimacoin. That is the one thing that we do intend to track for the Saturday runs. One to a customer until all in the run have it from Saturday runs.

If a person gets the Symbol in a run outside the Saturday run, it is also outside the Saturday tracking and congrats.

5. Have fun! Enjoy the company and the game.

[Eonwë]

Ok, as long as the Valar Guild's LotRO Branch Leader is involved in this, the Council of Mahanaxar is satisfied :}

[Varda]

How does the group feel about modifying the above to allow outside players to run as Mains instead of Alts, since they allowed us to have our run?

I probably won't be able to be near a computer this upcoming Saturday and would like to think that if someone from outside had to act as my replacement, he or she could be compensated for that.

[Indis]

Miriel's post (with the table for the WSoC) looks comprehensive and fair. I support it, with thanks to Miriel and the others who contributed.

[Miriel]

Oct 27, 2011 8:50:48 GMT -5 Varda said:

How does the group feel about modifying the above to allow outside players to run as Mains instead of Alts, since they allowed us to have our run?

I think this would be the best way to to handle our need for additional help.

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

Oct 26, 2011 18:29:17 GMT -5 Eonwë said:

Ok, as long as the Valar Guild's LotRO Branch Leader is involved in this, the Council of Mahanaxar is satisfied :}

I guess that is a matter of semantics.

In response to Galdor's comment that a kin of helping people would default to the gear "mains" first being a more giving method I say that is a matter of opinion or point of view. It depends on what the goal is for the kin. If the kin wants to advance and beat harder skirmishes and raids, especially a kin with very limited membership, it has to consider strong alts as a valuable asset. Some skirmishes can be beat by almost any combination of classes. Others require some very specific class combinations. If our goal is simply running 3 or 4 skirmishes each Saturday for the sake of loot primarily, then concentrating on the easiest ones in spite of boredom is the best way. But if learning to beat harder and more complex skirmishes in the process is an important part of the goal, then we have to care that those with strong alts have reason to bring them and improve them for the sake of the kin's ability to win. This does not make them less giving members.

And for the record, I think I am the only one so far to bring an alt to skirmish day, I have attended every skirmish and I have yet to win anything on either toon.

[Varda]

We are trying to gear up mains first and then move on to alts. We do have a burglar main so a burglar alt is not really required for what we've been doing. Please feel free to bring in your minstrel main as either healer or dps until you've acquired what loot you want. Most of us are after the Superior 4th Marks and skirmish marks for the Adventurer's Quartermaster loot which all should be picking up on these runs, not going home empty-handed. We can also run smaller groups during the week and go for specific drops to supplement the Saturday raids. We have been doing three different raids in a row each Saturday so far. You don't seem to always be able to attend them all and might want to take advantage of such smaller group runs and pugs as well. If you have a very specific item you want, you might suggest which run it is here and we can see about adding that run to the list.

[Irmo]

Nov 6, 2011 13:36:10 GMT -5 Ulmo 1997-2011 said:

It depends on what the goal is for the kin. If the kin wants to advance and beat harder skirmishes and raids, especially a kin with very limited membership, it has to consider strong alts as a valuable asset.

First off, I am impressed by the commitment and enthousiasm of our membership. Last saturday we didn't even have to look for external friends to fill up the raid. And again, everybody showed great discipline, payed attention and above all, kept a smile in their heart even when facing minor setbacks or confusions. So kudos to the community here!
I agree on strong alts being an asset. My main has always been my captain, but I chose my guardian for this, because he is for now just that bit more needed, until other members can free their mains and bring guardian alts to replace Marella and/or Irmogar.

At this point in time, getting everybody at least one Worn Symbol is goal number one. Superior 4th marks are also nice, and the teal loot is merely a bonus. Any squirmish will do for these aims. Yet we are already aiming at improving our performance. That is why gradually we will move from more simple to more challenging squirmishes. Miriel has dropped Prancing Pony for Necromancer's Gate just with that aim in mind (avoiding boredom is also a thought ;D).
So we seem to combine the good with the better. We get everybody their symbols and S4m's, and at the same time our 12-man cooperation will keep improving until hey, at some point we might venture into our first 12-man Dragon guildraid.

Great job everybody!
Irmo.

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

Nov 6, 2011 17:34:33 GMT -5 Varda said:

We are trying to gear up mains first and then move on to alts. We do have a burglar main so a burglar alt is not really required for what we've been doing. Please feel free to bring in your minstrel main as either healer or dps until you've acquired what loot you want.

You continue to imply in forum, our chats and mails that my points of discussion are aimed at my toons. Please read the words I type and not what you think is between the lines. If gearing my toons were my primary concern I wouldn't do any Valar runs. My only reasoning for mentioning my lack of loot was to show that greed was certainly not my reasoning for raiding with Valar nor was playing an alt. I actually think my imput, both play and in forms of communication can be a valuable asset in our attempts at end game content.

Having a burglar main is nice, but that does not guarantee anything for each week. Only by having variable options can a small kin hope to consistently be able to field a viable raid. The entire point of my last post was that having this flexibility was important.

[Irmo]

Nov 8, 2011 9:55:10 GMT -5 Ulmo 1997-2011 said:

. The entire point of my last post was that having this flexibility was important.

Varda is not implying, she is - as always - trying to be understanding. Thanks for clarifying your point, I think you were at the brink of loosing more readers about what your point exactly was. And your last lines did not help.

Of course, flexibility is important. There may come a time in the future when we want to run two burglars. And you are right, our groups are sloppy with the conjunctions. We have to improve there.
Precisely for that reason, I think you will agree your minstrel is for now a bigger asset to our raid than your burg. I will clarify this some more underneath, if needed.

Moving on, I think we have evaluated points for improval.

The way we ran two main assists last run is not productive. Running two main assists also leads to confusion about the fellowship maneuvers by the way!

But, Hurin made a very valid point. We should not all assist on the same big boss. That can take (too) long, meanwhile adds are piling up, and we miss the so very valuable on-defeat skills from trashmobs. That is in a nutshell why we unnecessarily failed on the last Amon Sul: boss down, ton of adds left.

Marella/Gildor and Irmogar/me can also improve on a better division of labour. We should never be on the same boss, and make sure that between us we have the whole field aggroed.

My conclusions:
Next time we run two main assists again, one for the boss(es), one for trash mobs, unless otherwise specified by the raidlead. Ideally assist 1 is a champ (Avengelina is doing a good job), assist 2 a captain (Hiurred). Burglar should be in the group that focuses on the boss.
One burglar is enough for now, the group with the burglar should focus on getting their fellowship maneuvers tip-top perfect. Each time we have a maneuver of 3-4 instead of 6 we loose crucial time and effect. Having two burglars in two different groups only adds to this hazard.
I have learned a lesson there
Gildor and I have to improve our effort at keeping the whole field covered between the two of us.

What do y'all think?

[Miriel]

Thank goodness! I can not wait for the following...

Update 5: Armies of Isengard Release Notes - Bullroarer Only
forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?431112-Update-5-Armies-of-Isengard-Release-Notes-Bullro
Raid, Skirmishes, Instances
All raid skirmishes will wait 10 minutes before sending you out after completion

[pippin]

10 minute window to loot?! Woohoo! That will save us much aggravation. Let the in game discussions resume! It's my loot...no, it's my loot...hey, whose loot is this anyway? -pippin