instance nights

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

When I volunteered to get involved in the weekly instance runs I saw it as an opportunity to get Valar involved in the 6-man instances on a regular basis. I hoped it would be a chance for us to learn to work together and progress through the challenging instances. I hoped it would mean doing content that in the past members either had to leave the kin to do, or be willing to PUG. I had hoped it would be instances that all 6 involved would find fun, challenging and maybe rewarding. We only get together twice a week at most to do 6 man instances. To do anything else that is not fun and challenging for all involved is in my opinion a complete waste. I am not against helping others with quests and such that require a full, or near full group, but I do not think that scheduled weeking instance runs are the time. We do so very little together that I think these weekly runs should be reserved for challenges that we can not seem to do at other times.

Therefore, I now withdraw from my involvement in these instance runs.

[Varda]

Monday and Wednesday at 8pm EST are the scheduled instance nights.

No one has been required to come to these instance nights, but all members who can are welcome. We do need to start on time for any type of instance by being present early and having our potions, food, and tokens already stocked, and not running off on other quests right before. Some of our people have very tight times that they can come.

We may be able to take the stress off of instance nights to allow them to be for higher level runs. This could be done by adding a night to help clear lower-level log-jams in the book quests, and maybe still another one for lowbie group quests. On-level groups are the most fun but we can use higher levels when we're low on such alts.

To do this, we need members to help run these other two nights, maybe swapping off or working together at the same time as needed. On some nights duty will be non-existent. These runs may have to shift around during the week to accommodate schedules, but can be set up ahead of time, mentioning it to others who happen to be around when it's going.

Volunteers are welcome!

Update:

Thank you to Eomer, Galdor, Indis, and Pippin for saying they would be willing to help with the book and regular instance group runs.

Monday has been picked for any kind of group instance, with Wednesday as the level 65 instance. The membership suggestion has been to also call out the need in the kinship, but that hasn't been as successful as we'd like since it is generally asked while others are already involved in other things and have difficulty breaking loose. A little patience can make it work.

[Varda]

Eonwe made a suggestion of a turn-based system on the book and lowbie group questing, so that if someone had their quest run last time, it would be another person's the next time.

If more than one need it at a time, that's even better. Maybe we can try to work up a group or several more or less together.

[Eonwë]

I don't spend much time in groups on LotRO, but I make an effort to come in Mondays and Wednesdays *because* they're our instance days, our special days on LotRO. I don't spend much time on LotRO outside of this. If I don't group, then why do I show? To partake in the community of our Guild. Just like our Sunday meetings in our AIM channel is a guaranteed place to find (hopefully many) members, to get Guild news and discuss Guild business, and to meet eachother across server, realm, and game, I've seen the Monday and Wednesday runs as a guaranteed time to see members on, to attempt to hang out with the ones who for whatever reason decide not to come to meetings.

I had intended to speak in defense of those who similarly make a point to come on Mondays and Wednesdays because it's our special days and it's a guaranteed day to find members, and really don't have time in the week to show up any other day, but as I've been assured I'm the only one who regularly shows only on those two days, we can skip that.

I do agree with the sentiment that on these days, when there are enough at the max level, willing to do max level content, that said max level content should be the priority. To say that one should always be having fun sounds nice on paper, but it largely depends on what one considers fun, and even in a game it won't always happen. I'm not convinced that max level content is automatically equal to "fun," just because it's max level content, or even just because it's new. I had my fill of the Haunted Cellar from Halloween before I even finished the first quest. I'd seen enough of Blackrock Depths and Wailing Caverns in WoW the first time I did those way back in the day. Would I go back? Judging by fun factor, no. If a guild member (or four) needed it, I would, to help out that guild member if they had quests there (as long as I didn't have to run it daily or weekly, hehe). I don't consider that a complete waste, as hopefully that member will act in kind and aid other guild members in what ways they can. That at least was what I determined to do way back in the day in the D1VK mod when a guy named Ulmo dropped a Sword of the Heavens on the level 1 Warrior of a fairly newly joined Aragorn (me), and another guy named Aulë was always willing to drop what he was doing to help me recover my Dunadan's gear when I got in over my head in the D1 ME mod, and I realized I'd never be able to return the favor to either since they went through stuff so much faster than me.

Of course, with the last expansion, Blizzard made one of the greatest upgrades to WoW (not just in my opinion, but in the opinions of many) when they introduced the Dungeon Finder tool, which allows one to find or fill in groups for dungeons with people across an entire battlegroup (group of realms), and even have a random daily dungeon feature, which rewards you for running a dungeon that is randomly chosen for you. Therefore, guiding members through low level dungeons is not so much a need since they can easily find groups on their own now. Still, I aid members in what other ways I can.

Since LotRO doesn't have that option, however, one has to make do with what one has.

The suggestion from me that Varda mentioned was to help address the aforementioned situation that we have skipped since it doesn't exist. The concept, however, is still sound for other reasons, so I'll give the suggestion in more detail.

1.) First, encourage all members to sign up on our forum (using their Guild name) and contribute to a weekly list of dungeons they desire to run. Since many dungeons now scale up as far as max level, there's little reason to limit *which* dungeons, as any dungeon at max level should be either challenging, rewarding, or even both for those at max level. Any Volume I story instances can be solo'd at this point, and there's only a handful of Volume II instances that require a fellowship. As I understand it, Volume III so far can be fully solo'd. So, there's not many reasons to rule out a go at one of those handful of Volume II instances either, though the goal on those should certainly be to get as many through in one go as possible.

This list will be made anew for each week, with anything not done during the previous week carrying over (unless it gets done during the off-days).

2.) Create a priority queue for these instances that takes into account the following:

a.) I suppose the cardinal rule would be: Instances on the list have greater weight than an instance randomly named in chat. This would be to encourage participation in making the list, and in doing so encouraging efforts in organization and expedition of the instance runs. If we know the likely choices before going in, it's less time spent debating it.

b.) Attendance/Timliness. Attendance strictly for the group, or attendance for showing up on these days, I leave to others' discretion. Timliness means the person is there and ready to go by run time. When the group invitation goes out, all other activities should be complete or put on hold. How strenuously this should be enforced (i.e., is the person literally turning the quest in right now?) I leave to others' discretion.

c.) Participation. Does this person only show for runs that he/she called for, or is he/she there for the "boring" instances other people want too?

d.) Time since the group ran something that person chose. When was the last time the instance of choice was the one that person requested?

e.) Holdovers from the previous week. If it was on last week's list, and the above criteria is met by the person or persons, the holdovers from last week get higher priority.

f.) If desired by the Guild, weight could also be given to newness of content, i.e. instances that just came out would take priority over a lvl 65 Garth Agarwen run. This could even be used as a tie-breaker if consideration of the other factors results in a tie.


3.) The group leader chooses the instance choices of the night from the list based on the first (up to six) members on within 30 minutes before run time who will be running (so with an 8pm run time, the first 6 members on between 7:30 and 8 would decide which selections the instance of the night comes from. This ensures the instance run comes from among those who will be running.

The group leader then determines which of those instances will be the first of the night based on the priorities mentioned in 2.). A second (or even third) instance should be chosen as well in case there's time for another instance and the group is able to press on. If all six members are in *and* ready before 8pm, then there's the possibility for an early go time, and thus more chance the second (or third) instance will get seen that night.


Notes:

This system favors the instances requested by members who:
- Participate in making the list of instances for that week (of course) so that we don't have to spend precious instance time figuring out which instance to run.
- Come in early and are ready on time.
- Have helped by running instances they didn't request (during the official weekly run time on Mondays and Wednesdays).
- Haven't had their instance chosen yet.

For those who regularly participate, this would probably result in a more or less turn-based queue, with a random roll to decide order. However, it wouldn't rule out newcomers, because all they would have to do to get their choice is to add their choice to the weekly list, show up early for a couple of weeks so they're among the first six on, be ready on time, and help run the instances desired by others until the queue pushes their choice to the top.

Members who saw their instance during one week and decide not to show the next couple will find the priority of their next desired instance go down, while anyone who comes in early and regularly will get a better chance at seeing their instance chosen.

If a significant portion of a group leaves after a run, there's time for another among those remaining, there are members in the guild willing to go on a run, and the instance chosen for next in the queue is no longer an option because the requesting person is no longer in the group (having left), it won't be hard for the group leader to re-examine the list and make a quick judgement on the next instance. Again, having a list of places to run chosen for the week makes everything that much easier :} If someone doesn't enjoy the instance chosen, the consolation is at least they helped run it, so their next choice gets higher priority in accordance with 2.).

Assuming all instances on the list for the week have been run, or all members who requested a run are otherwise occupied, requests in-channel can be taken for a run. If this occurs before the first run of the night is to take place (which hopefully it won't since if it's the first run of the night, there was time beforehand to discuss it and thus it should already be on the list), anyone running can make suggestions until run time, at which point the leader makes the choice based on 2.).

In the above event coupled with a 6-way "I'm up for anything" declaration, the group leader chooses the instance at random.

----

It's simpler than it likely sounds. The point is to be ready to go by instance time so that the moment invitations go out, the participants can go straight to the instance without delay, and to reward those who make it possible.


Feel free to comment.

[Varda]

LotRO has a Find Fellowship option. This does not help us get together in kin groups but does help in a pinch.

[Eonwë]

Does LotRO's automatically match you with a group, or fill empty spots in your group? I was under the impression it didn't. WoW's automatically throws a tank, a healer, and three DPS into a dungeon to run it. All you have to do is enter the queue. What's more is that it does it across servers, so even if no one is responding to GLFF calls or calls in any other chat channels on one's server, there might be someone looking for the same run on another.

WoW's gives an option to complete instances/instance quests for those who just can't quite fill out an entire group with guildies or friends, which was my point. Members working on any dungeons wouldn't be stuck on off-days trying to scrounge up a group that may not get formed because they could just queue with who they have from the guild and be matched with a group as soon as people with the necessary roles are available for that dungeon.

Even you *can* get a full group in WoW, you can still queue the entire group to run the daily random and get the reward.

[Rory 2010-2011]

Dec 14, 2010 9:32:43 GMT -5 Eonwë said:

Does LotRO's automatically match you with a group, or fill empty spots in your group? I was under the impression it didn't. WoW's automatically throws a tank, a healer, and three DPS into a dungeon to run it. All you have to do is enter the queue. What's more is that it does it across servers, so even if no one is responding to GLFF calls or calls in any other chat channels on one's server, there might be someone looking for the same run on another.

Nope, LOTRO doesn't have that. But in LOTRO you can create an "open fellowship" with either a description or a quest selected from your quest log for others to join at-will. You can disable the "open fellowship" once you have the roles you need.

[Eonwë]

Ah, so not exactly automatic (in that it requires people to do more than click a "queue" button) but better than watching an LFG channel for eternity. Sounds like how WoW's old dungeon finder worked. I hope it sees more use :} That kind of system really would do fine in many circumstances, as long as the player base makes use of it.

[nimrodel]

very good suggestions Eonwe! i am also willing to help out with any of the lower or logjammed book quests whenever needed. where are we posting our requests? is there a current thread for that?

[Rory 2010-2011]

Dec 17, 2010 18:26:27 GMT -5 Eonwë said:

Ah, so not exactly automatic (in that it requires people to do more than click a "queue" button) but better than watching an LFG channel for eternity. Sounds like how WoW's old dungeon finder worked. I hope it sees more use :} That kind of system really would do fine in many circumstances, as long as the player base makes use of it.

Yeah, it's a shame that Turbine didn't invest more time into polishing the looking-for-fellowship UI. It could have been much more valuable.

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

I wouldn't want an automatic group finding mechanism of any sort. Most PUGs are disappointing as it is, but to have no control of who you join or who joins you would be completely unacceptable to me.

[Eonwë]

Surprisingly, that has not been my experience on WoW, Ulmo. Most PuGs I've been in through Blizzard's Dungeon Finder system have been both competent and relatively polite, albeit not very talkative.

If someone in the group is a problem, you can vote-kick them, or you can ignore them (no matter the realm) and you won't be grouped with them again, though the odds of grouping with them again are pretty low anyway thanks to people being pulled from an entire battlegroup.


Anyone who's played WoW for any amount of time, or even just been to the WoW forums, doesn't need to be told how the community can be. There are plenty of jerks, internet tough-guys, min-maxers who will yell at you for not eeking out that last .0007% of your optimal DPS rotation/spec/glyphs, guys who want you wearing Tier 11 gear to join them for Tier 3 content (when they, of course, aren't in Tier 11 themselves), guys who charge in without consideration for whether the tank's got threat or the healer's got mana then yell at everyone else for his death, etc.

If I can end up in enough decent groups in WoW through the Dungeon Finder to get me willing to keep using it, I can only imagine that in LotRO, where the community is certainly more friendly and civilized, it would be a veritable utopia.

[Varda]

We do have a night for lower level and class runs: Monday. We could use a thread for suggestions for our Monday runs and who could come. Those tend to change suddenly as we complete them during the week, so an alternative plan is good to suggest also.

[pippin]

finally, something that sounds interesting. I hope this system works out well for everyone. Certainly makes me more inclined to check the forums more often than I do.

Who knows, maybe I'll sign up for one of these sometimes, when I'm not quite so distracted by shiny otherness.

-Pippin

[Maedhros(V)]

Well, as always, my availability is dependent on whether or not my family, work, or artistic obligations allow. However, for the moment at least things seem to be on a fairly even keel so hopefully you should see me around on Wednesday nights for a while. Other than Maedhroc needing to do his class quest in Dark Delvings still, I only have a few book quests left so mostly I'll just make myself available for whatever's going.

-The Gneech