Let's face it, you all knew I was going to feel a need to get some more note compilations going :} And with as long as we've been going on this, we all need a review every couple of years, don't you think? :}So let's get started on some comments and compilations :} And this time I'll start with the April 15th and 22 2012 transcripts since they're no longer new.
The Sorcerer, Ring, etc.April 22nd, 2012Eonwe Valar: I'd like to finish digging up everything on the ring, the possession, and the sorcerer to get a clearer picture of all three of the subjects I've been digging up, since we're uniting them.
Eonwe Valar: MP. I really needed to get a clearer picture of what we were working with.
ArPharazonV: Ah, well, yes, that was something I wanted to bring up. I could describe here what I always thought the idea would be with the sorcerer and ring and possession, in case we haven't discussed it in full detail last week.
VardaValar1: The woods were to be retaken by strange morgul-works that would include a fear and a slow lethalness into the creeping darkness. These would be controlled from a deepset Angmarin ruin by an artifact to which they referred to as what translates to 'the crooked staff', and in ancient times was called "the staff of unlight".
VardaValar1: we must send folk to infiltrate the depths of the Angmarin ruins to find the controlling staff. These people must be good with going underground and with stealth.'"
VardaValar1: The base is supposed to be Angmar, so that works. And that is where the staff is, that Thranduil told us of.
Eonwe Valar: The problem with the Staff *still* being in Angmar and spreading its influence to Mirkwood, is that even Sauron had to have an emissary in the area to spread his influence/shadow/anything else.
ArPharazonV: Yes. With this sorcerer operating in Mirkwood, and the staff still being in Angmar, he could not have been handling it personally.
VardaValar1: ArPharazonV: What we should probably find in Rivendell is not a clue to him, but to the staff. Whereabouts in Angmar it might be located, how to get through Angmar, what to expect there besides Calaron's forces (which are plenty again, whatever he could find in the mountains as he traveled to Angmar).
ArPharazonV: Which is an interesting issue; if he did in fact abandon his own body to possess the elf, who was taking care of the staff in the meantime?
Eonwe Valar: Greenwood didn't become Mirkwood overnight, after all.
VardaValar1: and who is taking care of the sorceror's body?
ArPharazonV: Possibly not necessary. It was old and breaking, the plan was to abandon it permanently. If the possession would succeed, there was no need for the body.
Eonwe Valar: I would assume, that if the sorcerer gave up his body and isn't of a strictly Ainurian nature, he can't go back.
VardaValar1: If he did lose his body, he would really want to stamp out what's left of Calaron. Calion's presence reminding Calaron of his old life would be a problem.
ArPharazonV: If the sorcerer was to be driven out, he would need to find a new body swiftly before being whisked out of the world of the living (though a Nazgul-like state might be possible for a while).
ArPharazonV: And yes, Varda, that's what he's been doing, and with reasonable success.
VardaValar1: Maybe he puts himself partly in the staff?
Eonwe Valar: The nazgul still have their bodies.
Eonwe Valar: After a fashion.
ArPharazonV: True, Eonwe. But a spiritual life in the shadow world, I would mean. Maybe like the barrow wights.
VardaValar1: Visible if you're wearing the One Ring, at least.
ArPharazonV: I was wondering if he could put himself in the ring.
ArPharazonV: It would probably need a rewrite if the possession came from the ring, since that's not what I described.
VardaValar1: Sauron put himself partly in the One Ring. Sauron and Morgoth put parts of themselves in minions, objects. Arda was Morgoth's Ring.
VardaValar1: Where do you want the possession to come from so we can work with that?
VardaValar1: We don't want to stomp on your storyline from ignorance, so maybe at least a caveat? : )
Eonwe Valar: The question would be if there were any precedent in Tolkien of a fëa binding itself in such a fashion to anything but a hroa.
VardaValar1: Sauron and Morgoth's partial bindings count?
VardaValar1: What about "houseless ones"?
galdorandwe has left the room.
VardaValar1: Although even houseless ones I think were only interested in a hroa.
ArPharazonV: If I recall the post right, will look it up, it came from a sort of cloud of shadow during the battle, intensifying, and concentrating itself on Calaron, with use of the ring perhaps.
Eonwe Valar: The Houseless were Elves, first. I question if Man had that kind of "freedom" to refuse the summons.
VardaValar1: ArPharazonV: If he actually has to locate a device, it might give us some time, and it would be a way to slip some route information to us in Rivendell if what we're actually looking for is not the staff, but the other device, which might be stationary and more easily found. And harder to be outdated than a mobile staff.Eonwe Valar: Well, not to borrow heavily from D2, but the staff could easily require a headpiece or something.
VardaValar1: The headpiece being maybe the scimitar's hilt?
ArPharazonV: But a partial anchor might help, yes. If he bound his own spirit to the ring (remember that he's been using sorcerous knowledge from Sauron and his minions) it might serve as an anchor to keep him in the world for a short time after abandoning his body.
ArPharazonV: It would also make the possession easier.
ArPharazonV: So he would partially put himself in the ring and then remain tugged to the ring after releasing his old corpse.
VardaValar1: I kinda got lost. Did Calaron have the staff? or a ring?
Eonwe Valar: Elves, by their nature, were bound to Ea. Men were meant to leave it.
Eonwe Valar: Calaron had a ring, and as we're looking right now, the staff somehow too.
ArPharazonV: A ring, to start with. Which amplified his power. He either left this ring for Calaron to find back in the north on his scouting mission, or it was forced on him during the battle by his minions. I prefer the former though character motivation makes it a bit iffy. Why would Calaron even keep it?
VardaValar1: So maybe the staff completed lets him move completely into a body wearing the ring?
Eonwe Valar: Whether the Staff was in his direct possession (no pun intended) or not is part of what we had at issue last week.
ArPharazonV: We discussed the possibility of him having found the staff, yes, and also using it to greaten his power. It could even be the combination of staff and ring that made it possible to bind himself to the ring strongly enough to make the possession possible.
VardaValar1: Right now Calaron can still fight, maybe even win with help, but with the completed staff, he's evicted?
ArPharazonV: Amplification, though I tend to use that term too much.
VardaValar1: Good term. : )
ArPharazonV: Evicted? Maybe. Possibly smothered. Consumed. Burned into nothing but a small glimmer that has no hope to fight back but is only released when the body dies or the sorcerer is driven out. Possibly both.
VardaValar1: Get to use a woofer staff and tweet headpiece? : )
VardaValar1: Loss of control like a coma state, maybe.
ArPharazonV: I'm starting to feel a bit vague about the thing. I don't explicitly believe in invulnerable "souls" or fea, though I know it's canon to the world, so actually absorbing someone's personality and memories while annihilating that part of Calaron which is still free will seems a bit hard to reconcile with an indestructable fea.
VardaValar1: It's a story, so we go with it. The fea is indestructible. Memories might be accessible from the brain?
ArPharazonV: The possession was actually meant to, eventually, have Calaron's thoughts and memories absorbed by the sorcerer, while leaving that bit of Calaron that is actually individual, unable to fight back, maybe even put in a coma of sorts, yes.
VardaValar1: But we know about comas, where people no longer move the body at all, although they may wake up from it years later.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps Calaron has actually been put out of commission, in a way, to the point where he is not actually aware of what is going on in his own body anymore, permanently asleep, unable to fight back, while still actually *existing*.
VardaValar1: The brain could be carrying the memories like a hard drive maybe.
VardaValar1: Aye.
VardaValar1: He's not completely down yet, which is part of the sorceror's problem. May lose control of the body partly or completely with inattention if Calion is ready to jump in.
VardaValar1: Calaron, pardon.
VardaValar1: Calion may cause Calaron to surface more.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps. But I don't envision Calaron really being up for the fight at any rate, that's how deep the possession has gone. The whole shooting the girl incident was meant to simply break his fighting back to the point where it is very, very difficult to resurface. So far, the encounter with Calion in the clearing has not done so. At all.
ArPharazonV: The sorcerer will feel, and be, quite secure in his new body. Evicting Calaron's fea is not a priority, and it is very little threat.
ArPharazonV: Though combining staff and headpiece might give him the power to evict him, it is not for this reason that he's after the combo.
Eonwe Valar: Staff: I would put it this way:
Eonwe Valar: Story says it was in Angmar. We don't know how old that intel is though, and the detail wasn't much greater than "it's in Angmar." It could very well have been in Angmar at the time, taken by the sorcerer to Mirkwood, and that's when the "real" trouble began involving the staff.
VardaValar1: So we left the staff open-ended on whether it was brought to Mirkwood from Angmar?
Eonwe Valar: I think the best way to handle the staff thing is that the intel on it isn't as fresh as we'd like. It has no real impact on the story, since the Staff has to return to Angmar to be completed anyway.
ArPharazonV: Well, it is if we want a bit of a useful backstory for the sorcerer. As we have it now, he uses the staff and the ring to anchor himself to the ring;
VardaValar1: He's got the ring and staff and has to get them to Angmar, thinking the headpiece is coming along right behind him.
Eonwe Valar: But it leaves us without focusing too hard on the problems of how something this powerful could've been ignored for so long when only half of it can put out the kind of power that can specifically target Mirkwood from Angmar and not bedetected.
ArPharazonV: gets the ring to Calaron, then abandons his body (what happens to staff?) to possess Calaron through the ring, apparently not retrieving the staff (he didn't have it on him during our confrontation)
VardaValar1: Only much later does he learn the headpiece is coming along behind him with a hostile party!
ArPharazonV: Yes, Varda. That's another thing we have to settle, since we were on that when we ended last week.
VardaValar1: Agreed. Tryiing to settle it.
ArPharazonV: Does he notice the headpiece is missing before or after reaching Angmar?
VardaValar1: Good poinit, staff not visible during confrontation.
VardaValar1: He thinks it's following, feels it coming along behind him maybe even. But not noticing the change in whose carrying it.
VardaValar1: who's
Eonwe Valar: I don't see why if he were in Mirkwood, where he has servants bringing the sword to him, he wouldn't leave Mirkwood with both in hand if he could.
VardaValar1: He may not have risked the staff in a direct confrontation? Had it hidden or carried by separate party?
ArPharazonV: Well, his confrontation with us in the clearing didn't go too well. His control over western Mirkwood isn't as great as he thinks.
VardaValar1: The mirk needs work.
Eonwe Valar: The staff could easily be with his trusty steed, hehe.
VardaValar1: That's true. : )
ArPharazonV: He might have been eager to get out of there with the staff and headpiece following him instead of waiting for them to be brought to him.
ArPharazonV: On the other hand, he might have sent the staff Angmar-wards before the ambush.
VardaValar1: He might get the staff from the other group that is maybe ahead of him, not stopping for the confrontation. Catches up to them.
ArPharazonV: Let's say he did get the staff back from his forces after the possession.
ArPharazonV: While setting up the ambush, he learns that the headpiece is found.
VardaValar1: Or the headpiece was being tested against Thranduil's magic to see if it was the real thing?
ArPharazonV: He insists on the ambush, but is eager to get the next part of the plan going, and does not want to risk us finding out he has the staff on him.
VardaValar1: He might have been testing several objects to find the right one.
ArPharazonV: So, he sends the staff towards Angmar, and gives orders for the headpiece to be brought there as well, before executing the ambush.
ArPharazonV: After the confrontation, he goes there himself, under the impression that both pieces are already on their way. Which is true for the staff alone.
ArPharazonV: Or yes, headpiece could have remained behind to be tested, but I'm not sure how to place that in.
VardaValar1: He got pushed so he didn't have time to see which of the objects was the real headpiece, just send it to him after seeing which one reacted correctly at Thranduil's gates.
VardaValar1: That's what the orc parties were doing. The orcs we bumped into had the right one and were supposed to then come along behind.
VardaValar1: But they had a greedy orc who tried to grab it, and they had to get it back from him or face probable horrible death.
ArPharazonV: That works. He's busy with us, but his forces have found several things that could be the headpiece, and he just tells them to test them against the Halls while we're out.
ArPharazonV: But how would he even know that the real one was among those being tested?
Eonwe Valar: What we were discussing last week was that the runes on the blade (and presumably on the staff?) somehow identified the pieces and when they were near to eachother.
VardaValar1: That can be a story in itself. Maybe learn it in Rivendell. One of the objects in this chest is it. But which?
ArPharazonV: Good point, Eonwe. The staff could have revealed that the blade was found, though apparently he didn't think to check which of the blades was glowing too?
VardaValar1: They had been so close to each other that the ambience had affected the others, for the sword to recognize. So they had to be separated for testing.
VardaValar1: er, staff. *sigh*
ArPharazonV: Allright. But he knew the headpiece was among them.
ArPharazonV: So he sends the staff away ahead of him (or ties it to a mount suitably distanced from the action)
ArPharazonV: and gives orders that when the real blade is found, it's to follow him.
VardaValar1: The mount idea was a good one. : )
ArPharazonV: Yes, it was :-)
VardaValar1: Makes better sense, the mount does.
VardaValar1: ok so far.
ArPharazonV: After the confrontation, he shakes us off, retrieves mount and staff, and heads to Angmar, assuming the sword is coming after.
ArPharazonV: And it is, but not in a direct line ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Were we still concerned he'd get there much much sooner than we would?
VardaValar1: And he may have a reaction from the staff saying it's incoming.
ArPharazonV: yes, Eonwe, but:
ArPharazonV: After he comes to Angmar, he'll notice the sword's not there. The company with the real thing isn't coming.
VardaValar1: since the staff could tell one of the objects was the headpiece.
VardaValar1: The company that was supposed to have it arrives, sans headpiece. Shortly thereafter sans heads?
ArPharazonV: So what does he do? He sends a big part back to Mirkwood to see what's taking so long, and though he might see the sword coming, he doesn't know the precise direction.
ArPharazonV: a big part of his forces, that is
ArPharazonV: Maybe to do some more searching if it got misplaced somewhere.
VardaValar1: The orcs know about us.
ArPharazonV: What remains with him in Angmar, he spreads out all over the kingdom in order to find this important location where the pieces can be combined.
ArPharazonV: So when we get there with the sword, he's not as prepared for us as he'd like to be; therefore, him reaching Angmar before us is not a problem.
VardaValar1: So he doesn't know the location? ouch for him.
VardaValar1: Maybe if the staff were in one piece, even not properly joined, it would have found the spot for him efficiently.
ArPharazonV: And yes, the orcs know about us. Which might be exactly why he sends a lot of them back into Mirkwood. He might have considered the option that we'd taken it.
ArPharazonV: In fact, he might send some orcs southwards as well, try and waylay us on the road north.
VardaValar1: hah! Action for Frali's axes!
VardaValar1: We'll just watch and cheer.
September 02nd, 2012VardaValar1: The necromancers are of Sauron, who is also called The Necromancer.
ArPharazonV: What if our sorcerer, as a servant of Sauron, had picked up this necromancy and either has been taught, or is directly using, a Houseless he himself called up, to possess Calaron?
VardaValar1: Now we have something.
VardaValar1: So that book Calion is reading is called Morgoth's Ring? ;-)
VardaValar1: Maybe this one was swayed by the idea of being given a new elven body not even slightly decomposed.
ArPharazonV: Using some sort of faded houseless fëa as a medium to depart from his own mortal hroa and take over that of an Elf, or having in the past studied these Houseless fear in order to learn their abilities for himself, so he could move freely outside his body without the use of a Houseless.
VardaValar1: Calaron won't leave willingly, so maybe the sorceror needs a place of power to finish ousting him.
ArPharazonV: If the former, then yes, the offer would indeed be Calaron's body, and both the sorcerer and the Houseless would now be residing within Calaron, though the Houseless doesn't seem to have any influence.
ArPharazonV: The Houseless might be trapped inside the ring.
VardaValar1: The houseless might merely have been offered, once they have enough elves.
ArPharazonV: If the latter, the sorcerer is now practically a Houseless of his own, though not one by any "natural" means, since he is not an elf.
VardaValar1: And they are probably going to want to grab more elf bodies. Auros, Calion both look good for that.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, in your idea, the Houseless itself does not have a body of its own yet?
ArPharazonV: Hovering around Calaron, waiting for the promise to be fulfilled.
ArPharazonV: "it will enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."
ArPharazonV: Maybe the sorcerer *is* a Houseless. Maybe he is not originally a mortal human, but took over a human body when Elves were not readily available, and used it to advance his sorcerous powers.
ArPharazonV: Becoming a powerful servant under Sauron's teachings, both in spirit and (stolen) body.
ArPharazonV: So many theories possible.
ArPharazonV: Any thoughts?
Eonwe Valar: Back.
Eonwe Valar: A couple of thoughts.
Eonwe Valar: (I've already read and caughtup, hehe)
VardaValar1: Well, you said two in the Hall of Fire, might be three or four of us. : ) May have to modify the post later.
Eonwe Valar: No, the two in my post are two scouts.
VardaValar1: Phar has some good stuff there that we might be discussing.
VardaValar1: Ah ok.
Eonwe Valar: Elves of RIvendell who were sent out along a different path from Auros.
VardaValar1: We may be at another table nearby.
Eonwe Valar: Thoughts:
VardaValar1: Getting the party together again. : )
Eonwe Valar: 1.) You haven't, so far as I've noticed, quoted the part where it says the Houseless has to be allowed into the Hroa by the Hroa's natural inhabitant before it can do anything with the body at all.
VardaValar1: So Calaron was tricked into agreement somehow. That could be an interesting story bit right there. You guys may be facing similiar entrapment.
ArPharazonV: True. That was actually right before my last quote. It didn't seem too relevant, since at the time I was quoting it I thought the sorcerer had some skills of his own to add to that of a Houseless, as well as the conduit of a ring.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Just because one Houseless got in doesn't necessarily mean that another fëa could ride in on his coattails, so to speak.
ArPharazonV: So he might have overcome that condition.
VardaValar1: Or we just have the Sorceror there, and he's showing some Houseless types that he can offer them excellent bodies if they do as he says.
ArPharazonV: Yes. One theory is that the Sorcerer used the Houseless he's called to "learn" how to take over a body. Using a lesser ring of unspecified power might be enough to overcome the difficulty of having to be welcomed. Truth is, we don't really know what they can do, and to not even consider breaking one of these rules seems unnecessary.
VardaValar1: Aye, if we can keep to canon, that's good, and it helps us learn what's in canon.
ArPharazonV: Canonically, a Houseless needs to be accepted by its host as it requests shelter. We need to find a way to bypass this, since Calaron would not have accepted it. How? We have a sorcerer, servant of Sauron, skilled in dark powers, with a ring and a staff. Is there not some way he could have some skill or ability surpassing that of a normal houseless, to gain forced entry?
Eonwe Valar: 3.) While we have evidence of human ghosts (The Oathbreakers who met Aragorn at the Stone of Erech), I'm not convinced that the condition of being "Houseless" is not unique to Elves due to their nature. It seems to me humans purposely trying to extend their stay in Arda would go the way of Nazgul rather than ghosts.
ArPharazonV: I've gone with the ring as a gateway, since it was placed on Calaron to facilitate the possession.
VardaValar1: So Eonwe, the sorceror would need to be an elf? This could be a clue for us.
Eonwe Valar: I think any way a fëa would be able to gain entry to another fëa's natural body would by necessity include permission, whether implicit or explicit.
karakedi25: would they have the choice to go Nazgul? Many wouldn't even know about sauron
Eonwe Valar: And by "I think" I should say "I'm convinced" based on the general tone of the story itself towards free will.
ArPharazonV: Aye, Eonwe, which is why it might be possible that the sorcerer was once a Houseless himself, who found himself in the service of Sauron, and once took over a mortal body or something because Elven bodies weren't easily found, or, at least, entered.
VardaValar1: So the ring pulls off some kind of trickery, making him think he's saying no when he's saying yes by confusing terms.
ArPharazonV: That works, Varda, I suppose.
VardaValar1: The Nazgul became what they were by the rings they wore, a different case.
VardaValar1: Just tossing ideas out there til we find one or a combo that works.
Eonwe Valar: My point about Nazgul could also be seen in references to mortals trying to live in Aman.
VardaValar1: The ring that Phar is talking about might have some similar mechanic to the Nazgul rings.
ArPharazonV: I do consider the sorcerer at the start of our story having a human body. I think he must have been houseless, recruited by Sauron, and then took over a human body. If he had his own elven body he would 1) not have any experience or knowledge of being a houseless and 2) probably not much reason to serve Sauron; or, for that matter, to switch bodies.
VardaValar1: Maybe a Saruman knock-off ring that doesn't work as well?
VardaValar1: Since we're by Dol Guldur, it's more likely stuff that is in Sauron's line of work rather than Saruman's.
ArPharazonV: So what did Calion find in these books? Probably not Morgoth's Ring, but a book that has the same knowledge and some more.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps he found the thing about having to be accepted, and realized Calaron was tricked by the ring somehow.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps some details about the way the Houseless attempts to evict its host's original fëa, realizing that the sorcerer would need more power to do so, and that's why he's going to Angmar.
VardaValar1: Maybe some way to get past the trick, if we know what the trick was. Maybe the book suggests a few tricks.
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: Yes. Perhaps a way to use the ring to our advantage to draw the sorcerer back out.
VardaValar1: But we need our lore-master to help us figure out which of the tricks it is by some tests, which she's digging out of the books.
VardaValar1: and she needs some info from a weaponmaster to help with that.
VardaValar1: And the trick can be reverse-engineered by a weaponmaster if a lore-master is around to aid on the enchanted part while he's doing the physicial part.
VardaValar1: Is that enough food for thought for considering our next posts for now?
ArPharazonV: Yes. I'll try to get one up during the week. If you're eager to go ahead, though, you're allowed to assume that I've said yes to your offer and am coming along.
VardaValar1: ok, thanks. :-)
VardaValar1: We can also just say we went and decide that was so pleasant that we'll breakfast in the Hall of Fire in the morning too, and then spot Auros.
VardaValar1: Tie it in.
ArPharazonV: Maybe, and I can share the exposition again that morning when the group's together. "Look, Auros, Calion found some interesting things last night! Go ahead, Calion, tell him!"
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: We can also be discussing what we found out overnight and want to grab our weaponsmith buddy to help us with that trick business.
VardaValar1: help figure it out
VardaValar1: If you want to, you can make one of my famous super-short posts and agree to go with us to grab a bite.
ArPharazonV: Haha, sure. Want me to do so now?
ArPharazonV: And I'll end with "As they walked away, he said 'Oh, listen to what I found.."
VardaValar1: Great!
VardaValar1: Then I'll post the bit where we go back in the morning. And Fainan may even decide hunting down info like this with friends isn't so bad after all. Character development.
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, got caught up looking for something in Morgoth's Ring.
VardaValar1: Sounds like a good thing to do, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: Whether this Houseless was admitted to enter Calaron's hora, whether intentionally or unintentionally, Calaron still has the chance to wrest his body back, though even if he finally wins it may still cause great injury to his hroa.
Eonwe Valar: *Calaron's hroa
ArPharazonV: Any idea what this "chance" could be?
ArPharazonV: Because he hasn't been doing a good job so far.
Eonwe Valar: "For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful inhabitant."
VardaValar1: His chance is if some of us outside give him something to grab onto and pull himself out.
Eonwe Valar: The fact that Calaron's fëa is still apparently in there says he hasn't given up the fight even if he's on the ropes.
VardaValar1: So which of us is pretty good as a medic? Lore-master plus our field-medicine may be enough to get him alive back to Elrond, a great healer.
VardaValar1: If we help Calaron, we may also defeat the sorceror in the process, or try to find a way to damage him severely too.
VardaValar1: or outright send him on to the after-life.
Eonwe Valar: Well considering the Houseless would probably have a hard time keeping outsiders from foiling his plans *and* keeping control of a body that the rightful inhabitant is fighting for...
VardaValar1: and the sorceror is in there messing around too, may have some crossfire going.
Eonwe Valar: I think the fact we'd be working against him at all would offer enough opportunities for the rightful owner to contest for mastery of his body.
VardaValar1: Go go Calaron. :-)
VardaValar1: and if the sorceror is distracted at the last minute by that pack of vengeful wolves... :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hold on. are we going with that 2 ëar thing?
Eonwe Valar: *fëar
VardaValar1: not sure. Whether the sorceror is in or out of Calaron's hroa, the wolf pack would distract him.
ArPharazonV: I think we're going with the sorcerer being a Houseless all along, though up to recently he was inhabiting a human body as Sauron's servant.
ArPharazonV: Not a human soul riding along on a Houseless fea.
karakedi25: so he's a corrupt elf?
Eonwe Valar: I think the single spirit is enough to deal with, both story-wise and canon-wise, and another spirit in the same mix is just going to make things weirder, more difficult, and is quite probably extraneous.
ArPharazonV: Originally, yes, an elf. A flawed, dar, Houseless elf, who has been enslaved by Sauron and now serves him willingly.
VardaValar1: aye, that had a human body but is now trying to learn from another Houseless how to get into an elf body.
ArPharazonV: I think we're losing that part, Varda, if he is a Houseless already, he wouldn't need to learn from another one.
VardaValar1: He might plan to eject the Houseless one from Calaron before he settles in, or opt for a Noldo body.
VardaValar1: Agreed, unless he forgot while being in a human body, or lost some ability while in it.
ArPharazonV: Elf dies -> Houseless -> enslaved by Sauron -> steals human host, since Elves aren't easy to invade -> kicks out original human fea -> in following decades he finds or is given a lesser ring, while learning sorcery from Sauron or something -> uses ring to trick and invade Calaron, since his human body is aging.
VardaValar1: Aye, good summary.
Eonwe Valar: At the very least, Auros is too proud to be stupid enough to fall for whatever stunt a Houseless may pull, heh. I'd like to think he's just smart enough and been around long enough to know better though.
karakedi25: how likely is it that evan a Houseless elf would be corrupted by Sauron?
VardaValar1: Be fun to see Auros slap it down. : )
Eonwe Valar: One sec, I have quotes marked for that, Indis.
ArPharazonV: No need for him to be calling another Houseless to do so. The Ring, the pressure of his mortal body dying (as Pharazon, I know all about this), and a physically powerful Elf might be enough incentive to move to a new host.
ArPharazonV: Houseless elves have been enslaved and taught by Sauron. It might be that the time in a mortal body (or multiple mortal bodies in succession) was enough for the Houseless to attain human traits, perhaps picked up from the hosts' original feas. Among these traits, a desire for power and willingness to serve Sauron in exchange for that power.
ArPharazonV: And Elves themselves have been known to crave power and dominion for themselves as well, and not just Dark Elves. Galadriel too went to Middle-earth in order to establish a realm for herself, I believe.
karakedi25: but she was not corrupt
VardaValar1: The sorceror simply is calling Houseless ones to work for him, offering elven bodies and showing they can oust a live elf's fea using his handy dandy system.
ArPharazonV: No, she was not. But he might have become so.
ArPharazonV: So he is not a Houseless himself, then, Varda?
ArPharazonV: Posted.
Eonwe Valar: "The fëa is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authoirty, and is imperitive; yet it may be refused..It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fåa unbodied would flee .... unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion." In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the countersummons of Morgoth."
VardaValar1: The sorceror story is fine, just agreeing he's collecting minions
Eonwe Valar: There's one. I should have another similar, that basically says what I commented on earlier, that it says something about the Elf already if he's willing to refuse the summons of Mandos.
ArPharazonV: True. We don't know how old this Houseless is. He might even have been a servant of Morgoth in the First Age. One of the Elves he captured and corrupted, perhaps.
Eonwe Valar: Here we go, this one will do.. "Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint."
VardaValar1: A fea pre-disposed to disobedience to the side of Manwe.
VardaValar1: There you go, pre-tainted.
ArPharazonV: Sounds good. And being used to a few generations of human hosts might have some effect on him as well.
Eonwe Valar: I think the Second Age when Sauron was going about as Annatar offers plenty of chance for him to convince Elves he's got a way to let them stay in Middle-Earth no matter what as well. After all, after spending all that time making Middle-Earth like Aman (supposedly), why would you want to risk "accidentally" dying and ending up in Aman?
VardaValar1: There have been elves killed in the recent battles too. Some may be feeling anger, perhaps feeling the elves of Middle-earth have been abandoned.
VardaValar1: Maybe one of these Houseless Ones is known to Estarion, and he's seeking him/her, trying to help him/her towards redemption.
ArPharazonV: There you go. Plenty of reason for a Houseless to serve Sauron.
Eonwe Valar: There *are* the barrow wights too,... I don't recall anything absolutely definitive about the spirits that inhabited those bodies, just generically called "spirits."
Eonwe Valar: I know I've seen them discussed somewhere in HoME, but it would take me too long to dig up for this chat, heheh.
Eonwe Valar: A note on something Phar said about: Desire, even for power, is not a strictly human trait, and as the mention of Annatar shows, there's plenty of reason to turn to serving Sauron :}
Eonwe Valar: Nevermind, Phar covered that, heh.
April 9th 2017Eonwe Valar: We seem to go with the idea that it was the sorcerer taunting us when saying "meet me in Angmar." What if it was Calaron? Now our characters need not know that specifically, but it seems like a it could be "A Trap!" Or an unintended slip due to wrestling for control of Calaron's body.
VardaValar1: Could be Calaron, good one.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Speaking as, I'm not keen on still having him struggle actively and noticeably, but an occasional appearance may not hurt.
Eonwe Valar: It's not something that ultimately affects the direction of the story as a whole, just a musing.
Ar-Pharazon-V: It would explain why the sorcerer would give away his destination.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Especially since he apparently does not need the sword.
Eonwe Valar: Even if he did. We have no reason to believe he knew we had it, unless I've forgotten something.
VardaValar1: Gives Calaron a major part in the story besides being a mule.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Is a mule not usually the one carrying, rather than the one being carried? ;-)
VardaValar1: He may have just wanted rescue.
The Sword and Staff = Glaive: (It's actually this very meeting where I propose they are united, so I will be grouping them together from now on
April 15th, 2012VardaValar1: ok, so the sword was of good mats if not great craftsmanship since it was of orc-make, lighter than expected. Sturdy. Good quality, sharp. Shiver-inducing, hard to spot runes on the hilt in Black Speech, appearing to be a curse. Crooked (scimitar). Made Meren feel sick and it seemed almost to have a bad smell to her. The runes had something in them of their maker of the sorcery, not the mere inscriber. Sword from northern Hithaeglir, older than the inscribed runes. Runes too intricate to be inscribed by an orc. Elven variant of the Firth, not Dwarvish. A confusion on whether the sword is very old or quite recently made (a reason these notes are needed). Cirth or Firth?
ArPharazonV: Apparently it's made in bulk, to allow a scout access to it, but also the runes are too delicate to be inscribed by an Orc. Is this a contradiction, or were there a number of humans working on them at the time?
AriehnV: Cirth are the letters if i recall right
ArPharazonV: *too intricate, sorry
Eonwe Valar: Actually, one of the discussions we had, we tossed around the idea we were wrong about it being a scout.
VardaValar1: Auros isn't as affected as we younger, non-Noldor elves.
ArPharazonV: To make the sword more unique, you mean?
VardaValar1: Orcs were elves once, at least their ancestors. Maybe a few can do fine work?
Eonwe Valar: To quote myself from one of our conversations, hehe... "Weapons were one of the things orcs made well".
Eonwe Valar: We discussed that it wasn't a scout to give a reason why the sword would "seemingly randomly" be in the hands of random orc #432 (from our perspective)
VardaValar1: If we had examined more of the swords from the possibly special groups sent ahead of the possessing sorceror, we might have found more of such make. Maybe only on selected orcs.
VardaValar1: They may not have been just any old orcs, but a special advance group.
VardaValar1: They were working with the spiders.
ArPharazonV: Commandos. Seals.
VardaValar1: Sauron was calling all evil things to him, and that would have also been a general call that the Ring would obey.
VardaValar1: That sort of idea, aye, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: Not an ordinary scout, indeed.
VardaValar1: Oh, the "fine work" above referred to the runes.
Eonwe Valar: "Eonwe Valar: Not necessarily. If the sword is stolen, *what* the orc did as part of his troop doesn't matter. All that matters is that he somehow got it, either through thievery or murder, could not stand against his fellows, and while running ended up stumbling into us."
Eonwe Valar: "Eonwe Valar: Our assumption was the orc was a scout. If we're wrong, it doesn't affect the story per se, except that in story we get to re-assess our assumptions.If we want."
VardaValar1: If he was a thief, he was aware that the sword was valuable for some reason, but maybe not why.
Eonwe Valar: Doing this reading, a couple of other things came to me.
Eonwe Valar: First, the deal with the orc sword has been in some ways an inversion of the Ring: The sword was picked up by one of us, "randomly" grabbed by another of us, then tossed to the ground, claimed by another, and eventually taken from that person. The Ring, it was trusted Bilbo was "meant" to have it, and that Frodo after him was "meant" to have it.
AriehnV: i think i remember that we discussed that the sword , well the runes on it , were a sort of communication device that was used to keep control of the orcs to to contact a servant of sauron
AriehnV: in which case , we speculated , it probably "orignially" belonged to an officer , but then if a scout picked it up as discarded weapon he probably would have felt the controlling power but couldnt make sense of it
ArPharazonV: Would the officer in this case have died, for the sword to be discarded? It seems unlikely for him to "discard" the sword if he knew he had it for a reason. And surely, as an officer, he'd know this.
VardaValar1: Pardon. Clicking down to read Eonwe's stuff somehow made a total close.
Eonwe Valar: Not to get bogged down in something that may not matter too much story-wise (unless we somehow use it), but I think treacherously slain then the bandit makes off with it and ends up running into us sounds reasonable.
Eonwe Valar: The Uruk-Hai and the orcs or Mordor could barely keep the peace. Orcs from Mirkwood and orcs from the Misty Mountains may not be much more pleasant to eachother if/when forced to work together, and it seems we could be dealing with that here all things considered.
karakedi25: My error, it's Cirth.
Eonwe Valar: *orcs of Mordor
ArPharazonV: So this "scout" wasn't actually scouting, he just made off with the sword and happened to run into us around the same time as we got into a fight with the spiders.
Eonwe Valar: Bad timing on his part, hehe.
VardaValar1: What did he expect to accomplish if taking the sword would make him be alone? He must not have expected to be caught thieving.
AriehnV: i wonder , he must have felt the power emanating from the runes and maybe hoped to get and advantageous deal for it
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't seem to me orcs need much of a reason to kill and steal, but as far as motivation goes, he could've expected to use it as a status symbol or more to gain a following of his own.
AriehnV: kind of "protection money*
AriehnV: "you can have it back if you it nicely"
ArPharazonV: Perhaps it was not just him. Maybe there was a little faction-argument between the orcs of this particular group, and either he's the only survivor running off with the spoils, or the rest of his "side" was wiped out and he just managed to get out with the blade.
VardaValar1: Ok, he stole it thinking he wouldn't be caught, but was caught (runes warned, maybe?), and was running for his life and bumped into us?
Eonwe Valar: Thinking the situtation with the Uruk'Hai and the orcs of Mordor here.
AriehnV: that works
karakedi25: Do we need to know all of that? Frali found the sword, and by the time we saw it, we had left the orc far behind. So we can't know much about who it was.
ArPharazonV: I was thinking about the situation at Cirith Ungol where both sides fired off against each other and Sam only ran into a couple of survivors out of the entire garrison.
karakedi25: factional friction is almost a given among orcs
VardaValar1: His side was losing the argument and, as the one with the sword trying to take over, he ran to keep his head from being lopped off?
Eonwe Valar: I'd say both situations reflect what we're going for.
ArPharazonV: Yes, that, Varda.
Eonwe Valar: Do our characters need to know all this? No. Do we as writers need to know all this? Not really.
VardaValar1: May have been some other runners out in that forest. Mmmm spider lunch.
Eonwe Valar: Might make for some interesting speculation on a wiser man's part, though.
AriehnV: not really no , but its nice spelutating this and interesiting
VardaValar1: It may not ever be obvious to the reader, but it helps us write more correctly.
AriehnV: and that
VardaValar1: Only one sword, only for an officer, how it came to us.
VardaValar1: May have been one such sword with each band.
ArPharazonV: Aye. A bit rarer than first imagined, but still a good number of them going around (assuming there are quite a few of these bands running about)
VardaValar1: Help them find each other again in a mirky wood full of dangerous elves?
AriehnV: hmm
Eonwe Valar: Well it still has the "I said spelled out 'Gandalf is here for all to see'" problem.
Eonwe Valar: *I just spelled
VardaValar1: Low level spell, not a giant one?
Eonwe Valar: Not that anything is perfect, hehe.
AriehnV: i believe that is not that relevant because it is known to all the Elves that the Enemy is on the move
AriehnV: so a single spell wouldnt fall into weight
VardaValar1: Lot of magic going on with the new strong mirk and corruption of animals.
AriehnV: Mordor might have hoped that their own activity from more important actions would hide these minor devices
VardaValar1: Maybe it helped spread the new-fangled mirk.
ArPharazonV: Assuming that the Elves are sensitive to the swords' presence in the first place. I know they have power in both the living and the shadow world, but I can imagine the sword's communication functions to avoid the usual channels and be hidden in the background "magic" where only the people who knew they existed, knew how to find them.
VardaValar1: Thus the bands would need to spread out in particular directions.
ArPharazonV: The background magic being, indeed, things like the animal corruption, the mirk, etc.
Eonwe Valar: Well, I had another thought in all my digging. Feel free to squash it with lore or story concerns though, hehe.
VardaValar1: If it's a mirk-spreader, the mirk is so pervasive that the swords would be nearly invisible.
VardaValar1: Sort of like pulling taffy or spreading webs.
Eonwe Valar: It was the Elves who had come from Aman and walked at once in both worlds, not ever Elf, that "had power over both worlds"
Eonwe Valar: *every Elf
ArPharazonV: Ah, true, Eonwe. But that only supports my point :-)
VardaValar1: Agreed, only the older elves had their fea showing as a glow so much.
AriehnV: hmm if you ever tried on an old radio transmitter to tune in a medium radio station with a lot of static and maybe other stations around the same frequency that maybe gives you an idea :-)
AriehnV: medium wave broadwith
AriehnV: bandwith , broadcast frequency , you know what i want to say :-D
Eonwe Valar: Shall I share my other thought? :}
VardaValar1: Sure
AriehnV: please do
Eonwe Valar: As I said, feel free to squash it with lore/story concerns, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: You know that staff the Mirkwood Elves are looking for? The one that's supposed to play a big role in Angmar? (Now you all say "Yes" like you don't know I'm going somewhere with this)
ArPharazonV: Yeeees?
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't exist. (And now you all pretend to be shocked, hehe)
AriehnV: *nods like a good girl"
ArPharazonV: *le gasp*
VardaValar1: *doesn't exist!*
AriehnV: so we are chasing fairytales?
ArPharazonV: Like getting halfway through LotR and finding out that Sauron doesn't actually exist, he's just made up by Orcs and Nazgul trying to terrorize Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: oops
AriehnV: better fast ^^ , "thinks with longing of cosy blanket upstairs"
Eonwe Valar: We had discussed the possibility of a headpiece for the staff, and I was thinking that, while destroying the orc sword would complete the Ring-inversion (the Free Peoples actually being able to destroy to problem-item, sort of an anti-quest. hehe), what if the staff is actually a glaive? Thus orc sword = head piece.
VardaValar1: oy
AriehnV: nice twist ..
VardaValar1: I like it.
AriehnV: I do
AriehnV: but what does our Loremaster say|? Indis ? if your not busy in an instance?
ArPharazonV: So this blade is unique, then?
Eonwe Valar: Of course, if that was the case, and we destroy it in Rivendell, get all the way to Angmar and find that we already dealt with the macguffin, and our work was done before we left home,hehe.
ArPharazonV: It's actually part of the big artefact of evil that we've been hunting, and part of it just happened to end up on an Orc who just happened to run into us?
AriehnV: would be a kind of lol effect .. "we should have known that earlier and could have saved us the trouble"
ArPharazonV: That would make his theft rather more high-profile than we imagined. He'd probably have to have stolen it from the sorcerer himself then, though why Calaron has not also been looking for that particular piece is a mystery.
Eonwe Valar: It would work in *some* ways.. "evil will oft evil mar" and all. But aye, I invited you all to poke holes in it :}
AriehnV: maybe the sorcerer was too busy to notice
ArPharazonV: "Oh, some orc ran off with half the key to power in the north. I'll let him go while I go waaaay over there to the northwest to get the other piece, first!"
AriehnV: and only now finds out
VardaValar1: We use the headpiece sword to help find the staff, not realizing why it's linked, and are in danger of helping the baddies put it together, and are making it stronger by approaching.
AriehnV: which of cours then would throw Calaron again into our path
ArPharazonV: Perhaps, Arien. Perhaps he was thinking his forces were carrying it with them as they go to Angmar.
ArPharazonV: And when they get there, they open the box, and notice the thing's been nicked ages ago.
Eonwe Valar: Calaron might've known it was in Mirkwood. Would explain his presence there, and make the whole venture a "nick-of-time" sort of thing: The orc goes rogue at a time very convenient for us, not so convenient for our enemy.
VardaValar1: The headpiece was sent ahead to cause destruction to the magic gates at the Hall of Thranduil?
VardaValar1: He draws off the elves, then the orcs are supposed to return with the headpiece, not even aware that they wrecked the magical defenses?
ArPharazonV: Could be. Perhaps the band the orc was from, was instructed to either guard the headpiece while Calaron was westwards, or even to experimentally exploit its use aimed towards Thranduil.
Eonwe Valar: Both pieces might've been looted from Angmar in the time since its collapse. Troll-treasure from Gondolin and all...
ArPharazonV: And unknown to Calaron, someone in that band ran off with the headpiece, and he would never find out until returning from Angmar. Or, in this case, until we show up at Angmar with the thing.
VardaValar1: Aye. If trolls could have looted such great swords, a lot was loose out there.
VardaValar1: Calaron may have had the staff with him, expecting to rejoin the parts.
VardaValar1: Of course the orcs were going to follow him and he could put it together when not being chased. oops.
AriehnV: Elrond might suspect the nature of the sword but cant be a hundred percent sure .. thats why the sword has to go with our merry band to confirm this
VardaValar1: Or Elrond can tell that it's linked and can be used to locate the staff.
Eonwe Valar: The biggest problem I see is that if it is in our power to destroy it, we should. And if we have to take it to a certain spot to destroy it, and Calaron is smart enough to be waiting there for us, that makes him a better judge of character than Sauron, hehe.
VardaValar1: Calaron went home to safety and try to do what he could with half. Then we show up with the other half, conveniently bringing it to him.
Eonwe Valar: Doubly so if this spot is also the place at which the weapon would be at its strongest.
ArPharazonV: Well, Sauron is rather limited in the intentions and emotions he can conceive that other people can have.
VardaValar1: We can only destroy the runes in Angmar? ;-)
ArPharazonV: Calaron, however, is an elf. An elf whose memories and personality lie open to the one possessing him. Surely such efforts could be predicted by him.
VardaValar1: Aye, he is driven by power so that is all other people can be driven by.
Eonwe Valar: Of course, this actually creates alot of problems too.
VardaValar1: A long story needs lots of complications. ^^
Eonwe Valar: Considering we established its fashion fairly solidly.
AriehnV: well if that is the case neither Frali as the "finder" of the sword nor the sword itself would be able to stay in Rivendell not to enlargen their danger
ArPharazonV: I wonder where the staff/glaive actually is. Are we saying that the sorcerer/Calaron/'s forces already has/have it with him/them and they're going to Angmar to amplify its power, or is it actually in Angmar and they're going to retrieve it, hoping to join it up with the headpiece? I imagine the latter.
Eonwe Valar: Well it depends on the quality of intelligence in Thranduil's halls about "The Crooked Staff"
ArPharazonV: But why, in either case, would they not bring the headpiece with them in the first place?
ArPharazonV: Unless they are under the impression that they actually are, and the orc runner is actually *from* the force entrusted with carrying it to Angmar, and has come a long way in his retreat before running into us.
VardaValar1: That would be good, if Calaron is headed to Angmar with new intel from Dol Guldur, to dig out the staff.
Eonwe Valar: If the sword and staff were separated (likely by greedy in-fighting between looters) after Angmar fell, each piece could've ended up virtually anywhere.
ArPharazonV: Aye. And I would imagine the sorcerer finding the headpiece, using it to strengthen his own powers and spreading the "mirk", as well as being inspired by this find to go look for the other piece. Though why he would wait to do this *until* overrunning Calaron, taking his body, and confronting us, I don't know.
VardaValar1: Calaron may have received a message that the staff has been located in the northern mountains of Mirkwood and being taken to Angmar, so he's headed there to get it. He expects the orcs to be following behind with the headpiece.
ArPharazonV: The staff is already found?
ArPharazonV: Then what is the purpose of bringing it to Angmar?
VardaValar1: Central location, so they can fit the headpiece to it. Headquarters.
AriehnV: it might need the place to imbue it with the full power
VardaValar1: maybe the only place they can be properly joined.
Eonwe Valar: The discussion we had about it was that somwhere in Angmar would lie its origin point, where in theory it would be strongest.
Eonwe Valar: Or any of the above.
VardaValar1: Calaron just got the news that the staff was found and it's on the way to Angmar, one reason he's leaving Mirkwood when he could've continued the attack (he thinks) with the headpiece.
ArPharazonV: Or maybe there's a third piece there.
Eonwe Valar: The weapon being from the Angmar period would account for the age of the blade.
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: Required to fit the staff and the blade together.
AriehnV: a sheath
AriehnV: or a band
VardaValar1: Aye, accounts for the age.
Eonwe Valar: Since weapons are one thing orcs do well, we might be able to surmise an orcish black-smith.
VardaValar1: Don't need to add a third piece this late in the story.
ArPharazonV: This is getting into uncomfortable territory. I'm starting to think we've ended up in a Triforce story.
Eonwe Valar: That accounts for the fashion of the blade.
Eonwe Valar: As I said, feel free to squash this with lore/story concerns.
ArPharazonV: Find all the pieces, put em together, and do it before the enemy has a chance to do the same?
Eonwe Valar: The problem is, if we're doing this, we should be seeking to destroy the items, and it seems unlikely such an item would be *most* vulnerable when assembled.
ArPharazonV: That assumes we know what the item actually is.
Eonwe Valar: So aye, we should be seeking to destroy the pieces, which I would serious limit to just a staff and blade.
Eonwe Valar: *seriously
ArPharazonV: In any case, we can forget the third piece, and just say that some location, a nexus, or a mold, or whatever, in Angmar, is required for the assembly of staff and headpiece.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but even without the knowledge we would be destroying the blade in Rivendell.
Eonwe Valar: *the knowledge of what it is.
ArPharazonV: Let's set up a backstory here.
ArPharazonV: Sorcerer finds the headpiece. Is intrigued. Uses it and the ring he has, to increase his power, spread a bit of shadow over Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: But he is old, and a bit fragile, and would like to find a new host, preferably on the side of the Elves, so he can use that to the advantage of Mordor.
ArPharazonV: To do this, he leaves the ring for a scout to be found, who is Calaron, who has been coming from a mission up north, near his headquarters. This assumes that Calaron has the ring at the time of his possession, facilitating the process.
Eonwe Valar: Not even necessarily Mordor directly.
ArPharazonV: Why Calaron would pick it up? Dunno. That's a flaw.
ArPharazonV: Other possibility is that the ring is placed on Calaron at the time of the western outpost being overrun, in order to facilitate the possession right there. Seems a bit farfetched, also.
Eonwe Valar: I mean that in a Saruman/Ungoliant/Shelob "I'm my own boss but everything I do ends up helping Evil anyway" kind of way.
ArPharazonV: Aye, Eonwe, that's true, a bit like Glauring perhaps, too.
ArPharazonV: *rung
ArPharazonV: Whatever the case, during this whole war/possession business, sorcerer's forces look for the staff. Sorcerer, in the meantime, learns from Calaron a bit about his brother's mission, and would like to know more.
Eonwe Valar: And don't feel a need to commit to this. If it's a bad idea, or we can't make it work, let's destroy it and discard it as soon as possible, hehe.
ArPharazonV: He goes to Thranduil's Halls in a scheme to break Calaron's spirit, by shooting his love interest. Succeeds, is now in full control. He also takes the opportunity to spy a bit on our party, make sure we're still in Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: He then heads west to set up the ambush. Along the way, he receives word; the staff has been found.
Eonwe Valar: I forget, but I assumed/got the impression the staff was more tied to Calaron's possessor, i.e., in his possession.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, not sure about that; did we not just say that the staff had been found in the north, and that's why he's now trying to recombine them?
Eonwe Valar: That's part of the reason I want to do the same thing for the Staff that I did for the sword. It's discussions and writing over so logn a period of time, it's hard to keep it all in focus and remember why I thought they were passable ideas in the first place, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Anyway, he sends orders for a march to the northwest. To Angmar. To combine the pieces. A band of orcs is entrusted with the headpiece. One of these orcs makes off with the headpiece, unknown to either the band itself who's under the impression that the box/chest thing they carry with them to Angmar still contains it, or Calaron.
ArPharazonV: Other possibility is that Calaron specifically leaves the band with the headpiece in Mirkwood, to test it out against Thranduil's defenses, while he himself goes northwest to find the key combining place thing.
ArPharazonV: After the location is found, he intends to give orders for the headpiece to be brought there.
ArPharazonV: Again, seems a bit weird to me, but doable.
ArPharazonV: So, orc makes off with the blade which is actually the headpiece, and does not actually use the runes to communicate/link with the sorcer... but actually links back to the staff.
ArPharazonV: He runs into us. We kill him. We take the blade. We run into the ambush.
ArPharazonV: For some reason, Calaron does not notice us having the headpiece with us. Perhaps it doesn't give off as much of a presence as we thought?
karakedi25: I'm having trouble understaning how a sword can be a headpiece to a staff, unless the hilt is detachable.
ArPharazonV: Or the hilt screws itself on the top of the staff, perhaps through some device found in Angmar? Otherwise, I don't know how Eonwe conceived it.
Eonwe Valar: It might be the sorcerer has one piece (staff maybe, however that works out) brought it with him to seek the sword, is close to obtaining it (if it weren't for those meddling Elves and their Dwarf), gets chased off to lick his wounds, and finds out all to late the sword is no longer in Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: So sorcerer already has the staff, uses that instead to grow his power, and has his forces find the sword?
Eonwe Valar: It could be a pommel was devised to go over the connection on the sword, and a staff head for the staff. Quick thought.
karakedi25: it would have to be something like that
ArPharazonV: Sword is found, sorcerer follows that up by ordering march to Angmar to take place after the ambush...
ArPharazonV: but in the meantime, an orc steals the sword?
Eonwe Valar: The looters probably would want to cover the fact that they didn't get the whole thing. What they knew about the item itself is of no consequence.
ArPharazonV: Or is the orc in fact on his way to bring the sword to the sorcerer when we run into him? Odd direction of intercept, then.
Eonwe Valar: The orcs involved with the sword may not even be in service of the sorcerer, or a mixed party with the one who runs into us being the guy whom ended up with it (most recently) in the lull between Angmar's fall and the search for it by the sorcerer.
ArPharazonV: So the sorcerer does not, in fact, know that it has been found?
VardaValar1: If orcs realize they have something that could give them power, that would be enough to cause a fight. Make it hard for the bearer to take it to Calaron.
Eonwe Valar: Kind of a "We want your weapon, come along quietly" kind of thing, the orc manages to get it back, runs for it, runs into us, and one orc is as dead as another, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Still, for Calaron's justification to go to Angmar *at that time* news must have reached him of the sword's discovery.
Eonwe Valar: Let me run down what's in my head of general, see how it sounds.
ArPharazonV: Could there be a rebel band of orcs holding on to the sword, the sorcerer's forces discovering it in their possession, sending news to the sorcerer, only to have what remains of that band trying to claim the sword back?
VardaValar1: I still like that he was testing it vs Thranduil's magic, trying to see about disrupting it.
Eonwe Valar: 1.) Sorcerer, however he knows about it, is looking to rejoin staff and blade. Has staff somehow, uses it in Mirkwood, becomes known to Elves (giving reason for it to be sought by a Thranduil for destruction, which is already established).
ArPharazonV: Perhaps he actually found the staff in Angmar, and became a threat in Mirkwood for the sole purpose of finding the sword, rumored to be in Mirkwood.
VardaValar1: Not bad, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Somehow over the course of some thousand years, the sword has ended up in the hands of random (or not-so-random) orc #432 in Mirkwood at the time we're there.
VardaValar1: Just happens to be in the vicinity of Dol Guldur.
ArPharazonV: Or the north. Sorcerer's actions were mostly in the north of Mirkwood or along the mountains.
ArPharazonV: Though he might just have been looking in the wrong place.
ArPharazonV: If the Nazgul can do it, so can he :-)
Eonwe Valar: 3.) Sorcerer's orcs come across this random orc. Insert whatever situation between the orcs would best fit. Orcs (maybe) send word they have the sword. Sorcerer moves to meet them, tries to break his host in the meantime.
ArPharazonV: Sounds good. That would give him a motivation to only return to Angmar *after* the sword has been found, and the ambush has taken place.
Eonwe Valar: 4.) Random orc #432 (or any orc in the group for any reason, really. Which one and why doesn't matter for our purposes) gets away from the others sword in hand, runs into us, he dies, we get sword.
Eonwe Valar: 5.) Sorcerer, presumably working on some limited knowledge of Auros' travels, intercepts the group, maybe knowing, maybe not knowing of our recent aquisition.
VardaValar1: (So the staff, not the sword, was used vs Thranduil's Hall magic.)
ArPharazonV: When, Varda?
Eonwe Valar: 6.a.) If he does know, he finds he can't wrest it from us, initiates a gambit to try to get us to bring it to him where he needs it, hoping we don't realize what we have, possibly it not mattering.
VardaValar1: (Eonwe's #1)
ArPharazonV: Ah, early on.
VardaValar1: (Sorceror may think Auros is looking into the staff and sword, not realizing he's scouting for a safe route for the One Ring.)
ArPharazonV: Risky, Eonwe. He could not know we wouldn't leave it in Rivendell.
ArPharazonV: But perhaps, yes, the only choice.
VardaValar1: He would count on Elrond's realizing the sword can take us to the staff, for whatever reason.
karakedi25: I like the idea of the sorc having some anxious moments about the sword in our hands and possibly in Rivendell
VardaValar1: Aye, Indis. :-)
Eonwe Valar: 6.b.) If he doesn't know, he finds too late that the sword is no longer in his possession, maybe spends more time in Mirkwood searching for it (buying us precious time to get to Angmar, story-wise), at some point deciding to give up his search in Mirkwood, has backup plan in Angmar or to reestablish a search grid, something, where he's already taunted us to go so he can test his newfoundpower/evil laugh in our face/whatever.
Eonwe Valar: Roughly.
Eonwe Valar: End of outline.
ArPharazonV: What if he continues to go to Angmar, but for a more convenient way of finding the sword? Perhaps the staff is amplified there for some reason. Imagine him activating the search there, assuming he'll need to go back to Mirkwood, only to realize the sword's actually coming his way from the south?
ArPharazonV: I mean that the link between staff and sword is amplified there.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps that's how he know the sword was to be found in Mirkwood in the first place.
ArPharazonV: *knew
Eonwe Valar: I say staff because that's established in the story that we're looking for it. Thranduil himself knows of it, so I would assume that's the item that's most known about/seen by the orcs being killed, which would be how Thranduil is getting his intel anyway. The staff is being used, possibly being bragged about, the search for the sword is going on.
Eonwe Valar: *I say staff in 1.)
Eonwe Valar: All this said, I still see two big problems that need resolved moreso than all the fun we've been having :}
ArPharazonV: Makes sense. If the staff is more elusive and the sword more used against us, we would probably have more knowledge about the sword than the staff, especially if we have people scouting out the place, like Calaron originally did.
ArPharazonV: So good to have it the other way around.
Eonwe Valar: Problem 1.) The runes on the sword. Why, for what purpose? Why are they newer than the blade?
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Why aren't we destroying this in Rivendell? Can we not? If we can't how must we go about it? Do we need a blacksmith as skilled as/more skilled than Auros to destroy it in the place of its origin? Would any blacksmith do? Do we hope to find some wood and/or coal to build up a forge there?
ArPharazonV: I imagined them being used to link back to the staff for some reason. Perhaps they were only added when the glaive was seperated, and communication/linking was required.
Eonwe Valar: Do we need to find a dragon or a volcano? :}
VardaValar1: Trying to bring some property of the ancient blade into the mix by pulling on it with the runes?
VardaValar1: We've got to ask Bilbo to quit killing off our dragons.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps we don't know what the sword *is*. All we know is that it links back north, and we might use it to find the sorcerer or the staff. The fact that it is actually part of the weapon doesn't have to be known, even by Elrond.
ArPharazonV: So, we have no reason to destroy the thing.
VardaValar1: Maybe like Gandalf uses a sword and staff, they'd be assumed separate possessions?
ArPharazonV: Yes, perhaps.
VardaValar1: We'd be using the sorceror's sword/athame to find him. And such a sword should not be used as an actual sword.
VardaValar1: sorry, had a non-transitioned thought there by thinking of it as an athame.
VardaValar1: which should be a dagger probably. Forget that, I guess.
ArPharazonV: It's a compass. A dragon-radar, if you know the Dragonball series.
VardaValar1: /facepalm
ArPharazonV: It points us to the staff. We use it to get to the staff. We only use it as a radar, not a weapon?
ArPharazonV: It's a tool, and we have no idea it should actually be destroyed.
ArPharazonV: In contrast to the Ring, the identity of which has been known since Hobbiton.
VardaValar1: Aye, we just don't realize it's full import. A magical radar is cool enough, after all.
ArPharazonV: Aye, especially when we're actually looking for the item it points to, in the first place.
VardaValar1: We might think it's what the sorceror used to locate the powerful staff in the first place.
ArPharazonV: Could be.
VardaValar1: We think we're in Dragonball when we're not. : )
ArPharazonV: So. Sorcerer finds staff in Angmar. Uses it to locate sword... in Mirkwood. Goes to Mirkwood. Staff is weakened, can't pinpoint location. Has people searching. Whole possession-arc, with ring, after using staff to poke some holes in Mirkwood and releasing the mirk.
ArPharazonV: Random orc has sword, or band of orcs has sword. Band with sword is discovered by troops of sorcerer/Calaron-at-this-point.
Eonwe Valar: In-depth on Problem 1: Does anything we're discussing contradict what we've established about the runes in the story?
ArPharazonV: Message is sent, as Calaron sets up ambush. Orc retreats with sword, runs into us. We take sword. We run into ambush. Calaron discovers we don't have it (one possibility), heads north, thinking his troops have the sword. We head to Rivendell with sword.
ArPharazonV: Calaron realizes he does not in fact have the sword, diverts forces back into Mirkwood to look for it. Continues to Angmar with staff to locate sword again.
ArPharazonV: As he does so, we come up north with the sword. Calaron surprised, as he sees it coming. Pleasantly surprised. Half expecting us, he resolves to finding the location to combine sword and staff.
VardaValar1: Similar runes on the staff resonate with the runes on the sword-hilt.
ArPharazonV: We sneak into Angmar with the sword, try to locate staff. Run into Calaron. Confrontation. I have some ideas for this, but none that I'm telling yet.
VardaValar1: The runes in the story have a contradiction about being in Black Speech or Elven.
ArPharazonV: Elven alphabet, that I know. Cirth, was it? Still, Black Speech, or some variant of Black Speech that Meren does not recognize. Could be a compromise.
Eonwe Valar: The language is Black Speech, the mode of writing is Elvish, as I recall. I.e. Cirthas Daeron vs Angerthas Moria.
VardaValar1: The brothers might also be a way to help locate the staff. So Calion might need to be the one carrying the sword, wrapped safely except during radar checks.
karakedi25: only the Cirth are elven. The language can be a variant of Black Speech
VardaValar1: Aye, that works.
ArPharazonV: *nod* some dialect that Meren does not fully recognize.
ArPharazonV: Native to Angmar, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Really ancient dialect that Elrond recognizes.
ArPharazonV: Ah! Yes. Which is how we know it leads us to the staff. But would he not expect a link between them to the point of keeping the sword around being risky?
ArPharazonV: Anyway, will my brief summary of events do?
Eonwe Valar: I'm having some trouble resolving the runes = Elvish script + being new(er than the sword) + not being the item recovered by the sorcerer.
VardaValar1: Good summaries
VardaValar1: We could make the scropt be old instead.
ArPharazonV: Not.. necessarily.
VardaValar1: The sorceror thinks he's recovered the sword, in the hands of minions and following him.
ArPharazonV: Let's say the glaive, or complete weapon, or other, while being assembled of parts, is supposed to be used as a whole, back when it was active.
VardaValar1: *script
Eonwe Valar: Phar's Summary, on Calaron discovers we don't have it ... I think it would be more he doesn't notice we have it, because I think Frali was using it, or at the least it would be hanging at his side.
ArPharazonV: yes, that's what I meant, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: ok, no problem then.
VardaValar1: typo
VardaValar1: Maybe the dwarven ambience did something fishy to the detection.
ArPharazonV: Anyway, for some reason, Angmar was in trouble, and it was prudent that the power of the weapon was needed at two fronts. So what do they do? They seperate the weapon. For easier use, it is *now* that the runes are described, and the weapons link to each other's locations.
ArPharazonV: Just in case one was lost.
ArPharazonV: This could be well after the initial creation of the glaive, and would allow for a younger script.
ArPharazonV: *inscribed, sorry
Eonwe Valar: Heh,m the runes on each item glows when the other part is near?
ArPharazonV: Maybe. But they also need to be able to be used to specify a certain direction or area that the other is located, though I don't know how.
ArPharazonV: After all, we're using it to track our way to Angmar, and the sorcerer was using the staff to locate the sword all the way from Angmar to Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: It would be silly to point it at a map and have the area light up, but still, we need something more than "glows when near".
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure he need track it from Angmar, but it would probably be easier to get word of something like this as a badguy than as a goodguy, depending on how much time the one searching has.
ArPharazonV: Do realize he already has some powers, like the ring, and maybe some device in Angmar can be used to shine a light in the general direction of the sword when the staff is inserted.
ArPharazonV: This is getting.. very science fiction.
Eonwe Valar: If we're going with the old-man sorcerer version, he could've spent his life narrowing the field to Mirkwood, and out of time, makes his move on Calaron.
ArPharazonV: That is a possibility. But how would he narrow it down, using the staff? And why would he proceed to Angmar, not knowing where the sword is, if not to try and locate it from there again?
Eonwe Valar: I'm just trying to keep it both Tolkien and consistent in our story, while getting a clear picutre in my mind of it.
ArPharazonV: I know, but my plot devices are falling apart, and I need to find new ones :-)
Eonwe Valar: For the same reason Saruman and Saruon were able to narrow their searches for the RIng.
Eonwe Valar: *Sauron
ArPharazonV: Sauron used Gollum. And even while hearing the name Shire from him, the Nazgul still went to the completely wrong place before going to the actual Shire.
Eonwe Valar: They knew Isildur took it. FIgure out what happened to Isildur, narrow the search, find a bunch of hobbits living downriver, try to get some knowledge out of them if possible. Catch Gollum, get a lucky break and advance several centuries of searching in a few days, hehe.
ArPharazonV: So the sorcerer did not, in fact, use the staff to narrow it down to Mirkwood?
Eonwe Valar: It's the Gandalf starting fire on Caradhras issue. The kind of power that could reach Mirkwood from Angmar would hit Rivendell long before.
Eonwe Valar: At best, it's a reason to send scout up north during the whole sending out scouts thing, and at worst it's a major red flag that something is going down.
Eonwe Valar: Having said that, it doesn't sound completely horrible, but it seems like a level of power we shouldn't deal with, especially if this is only half the item.
ArPharazonV: Allright. So sorcerer finds staff. Does not use it to locate sword in mirkwood; in fact, spends a lot of time narrowing it down to mirkwood, to the point where he needs to take a new body to get more control over Mirkwood and to have more time to find the sword.
ArPharazonV: During the search of Mirkwood he uses the staff, spreads a shadow of Mirkwood, hopefully trying to lure out the sword in some odd way.
Eonwe Valar: I would imagine in the mind of a mortal, (seems we dropped the lesser Maia version along the way) picking an immortal Elf would be a great host, and allow for plenty more time.
ArPharazonV: Possession happens, sword is found not long after. Message sent. Sorcerer is pleased, continues with ambush he was already setting up, plans to go to Angmar with both pieces. Sword is lost, unknown to him. He does not discover it on us, though we have it, and tells us to come northwest if we want to face him again, because basically, he's eager to go there and does not wish to toy with us some more.
Eonwe Valar: I would say that he narrows it to Mirkwood through research, and from there he uses a compination of orcs hunting for the sword and hoping to locate it via the staff.
ArPharazonV: Yes, that works.
Eonwe Valar: *combination
ArPharazonV: Anyway, two possibilities:
Eonwe Valar: Orcs/spies/ etc. to furhter narrow the field, and the staff the closer he gets.
ArPharazonV: 1) he goes to Angmar, only realizes he doesn't have the sword while reaching Angmar, sends forces back to Mirkwood to find it. This leaves him less prepared to face us when we get there.
ArPharazonV: 2) He realizes sword is missing, searches a bit for it, comes up empty-handed, and goes to Angmar anyway. His delay, also, causes him to less prepared.
ArPharazonV: In both cases, he manages to amplify the staff at its origin, runes start glowing, and he realizes the sword is actually coming his way.
ArPharazonV: My question is: Why would he return to Angmar if he couldn't find the sword again, in possibility 2? What would he have to gain?
Eonwe Valar: The thought comes to me that, if the sword is stolen, he would have the area where it went missing searched, perhaps attempt to capture Elves for questioning or infiltrate Thranduil's realm to see if he can find it. Assuming Calaron can still pass relatively unnoticed among Elves.
ArPharazonV: Possible. Though his certain reappearance might bring up some questions.
ArPharazonV: *his sudden reappearance
Eonwe Valar: I doubt he'd go in openly. I'm thinking sneak in.
ArPharazonV: True.
ArPharazonV: But when he can't find it, then what? Again, why would he go to Angmar? Or wouldn't he, and will we arrive there only to realize he's not there, and neither is the staff?
karakedi25: Was Thranduil ever warned about Calaron's possession?
Eonwe Valar: If he couldn't find it, the next step would be to guess we somehow got it, unless I'm missing other possibilites.
VardaValar1: Whatever any of Thranduil's scouts knows of any import, he will probably know.
Eonwe Valar: Thranduil warned? I'm not sure, might be if anything was hinted at or discussed with the hunters in the clearing.
ArPharazonV: Good point, Eonwe. If he infiltrates the Halls, and finds out that nobody in there knows anything about the sword, his conclusion might be that it never reached back there; and that the ones who intercepted the sword, would be us.
ArPharazonV: Which leads him to come to Angmar and meet us.
Eonwe Valar: I don't remember if Auros would've known at the time if it was Calion's brother, but I'm pretty sure Auros would make it quite known he was attacked by an Elf leading orcs.
ArPharazonV: It was clear. Calion was addressed as "brother" in the clearing.
Eonwe Valar: Oh yeah, so Auros would've raised the alarm even if no one else would've.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, the sorcerer's stuck sneaking in instead of relying on his elf-looks :}
ArPharazonV: sneaking in, capturing a few elves, overlistening meetings... and realizing "they don't have the sword... so who else could have gotten away with it?"
ArPharazonV: But would we really be the first choice?
ArPharazonV: Maybe, if he thought that Auros' mission had to do with the sword and staff.
Eonwe Valar: The question in this regard is to why the sorcerer would think/know we would bring it to Angmar. He couldn't know we'd want to use it to find the staff rather than destroy it.
Eonwe Valar: That would make the "I know you have business in Angmar" make more sense, given Auros doesn't think he has business there yet storywise, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Last sentence in reply to Phar's sentence on Auros' mission.
ArPharazonV: Unless he realized that Elrond could probably tell us that the sword links to the staff. But.. that seems meh.
VardaValar1: Most likely it's a case of mistaken mission.
ArPharazonV: That would assume Calaron thinks we already have the sword when he meets us in the clearing.
Eonwe Valar: I don't imagine we'll find anything about the staff itself in ELrond's library. I imagine this as more an item of power from Angmar during its glory days. As I've said in another conversation, I don't recall Angmar itself ever being invaded by the Free Peoples, just the Witch-King beaten and the realm pretty much dissolved.
ArPharazonV: Which we do, but he doesn't know that.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, good point.
Eonwe Valar: Well, no.
ArPharazonV: This is why it seems more likely to me that he just doesn't realize the sword isn't in his possession until he reaches Angmar. Possibility 1.
Eonwe Valar: Pretending for a moment that the staff *is* Auros' mission.
VardaValar1: or just finding out where the staff is could be his mission
ArPharazonV: Getting really late here. I should be going.
ArPharazonV: Can we take this up again next week?
Eonwe Valar: It would be logical that the sorcerer assumes that, through whatever means, Auros is caught up to the sorcerer in his search: namely, he knows that one or both items are currently in Mirkwood. Doesn't mean he found them yet. However, if the place to both unite them and destroy them is in Angmar, it can safely be assumed that Auros will *have* to go there, if either one is his mission.
July 1st, 2012AriehnV: Does it work with the way the corruption has started and restricted within Imladris
AriehnV: The thing I thought was that it wont come out while he is within the Valley and the House of Elrond but likely would try to get hold of him once he is leaving
karakedi25: what's the healer going to tell Elrond?
ArPharazonV: "I used Lay on Hands and I think it worked!"
AriehnV: That the weapon is much powerful than is obvious. That Frali had shown signs of corruption but it has been dealt with - he is surprisingly restistant and that's something Aranwe will mention to Elrond
AriehnV: No , the healer will go into the niggly details and mention that Frali was reluctant to talk, got a bit agitated when he referred to the taking away of the sword and tried to get it back
AriehnV: He is not really happy with what he found , unfortunatly
AriehnV: Glad he could help but its one more sorrow
Eonwe Valar: Just remember that Dwarves are notoriously resistant to domination by other wills already. It's why the only way the Rings affected Dwarves at all was to inflame their lust for gold.
AriehnV: Aye likely the way a corruption would have worked , a try to lure the dwarf and maybe the whole group into the hands of the enemyu
AriehnV: but its been dealt with :-)
Eonwe Valar: ok :}
Eonwe Valar: Any more on the RP before we move on?
karakedi25: based on what the healer tells him, Elrond will probably alert the company to the continuing possiblility of corruption
AriehnV: Frali is alert to the danger now and probably will be able to recognise any signs
AriehnV: at least in himself
AriehnV: but for the moment there is no room for any more :-) the last remnants of corruption that had been there have been driven out
ArPharazonV: So Frali would (ironically?) be the best to keep the sword now if we take it with us?
AriehnV: that is up to you to decide or to Eonwe
AriehnV: but its a possibility
AriehnV: err I mean Elrond
April 9th, 2017VardaValar1: What is the sorceror trying to do, that we know of, tthat we are trying to stop? How are we trying to stop the evil from happening?
VardaValar1: One: what is the apparent goal of the evil sorceror that we want to stop?
Ar-Pharazon-V: Hmm.
VardaValar1: Why would our group members care? Mirkwoodites among us care that Mirkwood was attacked. But we have one from Rivendell and one from Erebor. Why are they concerned?
Eonwe Valar: That we as writers know of I assume? That would be to unite the two pieces of the artifact he's looking to reforge.
VardaValar1: Ok.
Ar-Pharazon-V: He has one, we have another, right?
VardaValar1: Do we have the only other version? He doesn't seem to be trying to get it from us, and it didn't seem uncommon (to us) among the attackers.
Eonwe Valar: That we as characters know of? He's doing the always-dangerous *something*, hehe.
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: Our characters know that Mirkwood was attacked, apparently testing a new artifact. We may have a piece of one being experimented with?
VardaValar1: If this was just a test, the new weapon could be used against others, including Rivendell and Erebor.
Eonwe Valar: We have the orc-sword, which Auros was studying, being the only guy in Rivendell with free time on his hands considering what else is going on during the time we're there.
VardaValar1: Aye. It's been studied all it can be by lore-masters and is now being studied by a great weaponsmith.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Sorcerer did taunt us about chasing him up north, and Calion has an obvious personal reason to go after him.
Ar-Pharazon-V: I'm sure sorc wouldn't mind if we brought half of that experimental weapon with us, even if others are in the make.
VardaValar1: Aye. We know some sort of possession is going on.
VardaValar1: Maybe we're being lured in?
VardaValar1: He didn't know we had the artifact when he took over Calaron.
Ar-Pharazon-V: "It's a trap!"
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Even if the villian knew we had the orc-sword at our last meeting, there's no way he could expect we would actually bring that sword to him.
VardaValar1: Maybe Mirkwoodites, not being around a Ring, make a good possible host for Houseless Ones that the sorceror is collecting?
Ar-Pharazon-V: I'm sure he's busy making replacements already. For the sword-piece, at least. Staff-piece would be more valuable.
VardaValar1: Letting him sit around working on his stuff seems like a bad idea. :-)
Ar-Pharazon-V: Yep, that's why we're on a mission to stop him working on said stuff.
Ar-Pharazon-V: That's true for Fainan and Calion, at least.
VardaValar1: That we're being held back until the Ring-bearer leaves suggest we have a side job as potential decoys.
Ar-Pharazon-V: two birds, one stone
VardaValar1: Keep the sorceror busy.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Though why the Ringbearer would take the Ring to Angmar, nobody knows.
VardaValar1: so he doesn't join in the hunt for the Ring righ away.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Ah, that too.
VardaValar1: Why, he couldn't be! It must be going to a person of power. Heir of Isildur, o my! More likely a Steward.
Ar-Pharazon-V: (Also, after watching the last season of How I Met Your Mother, I keep getting the urge to say "ringbear" instead of "ringbearer", so if that typo occurs you know why).
VardaValar1: Our party needs a clear goal so we can actually get on with the story.
Arien V: ((more like in the cave in Highmountain box labelled *definitely not a trap*))
VardaValar1: ah hah! :-)
VardaValar1: heh, nope, not a trap.
Arien V: found that one already
?
VardaValar1: Go kill the sorceror in his lair seems like a poor plan. Maybe kill him before he gets there? Too late. Kill him after he comes out of the fortress to attack our people?
Ar-Pharazon-V: So. Chase sorcerer north, stop him doing his stuff, take and/or dismantle the staff (possibly the main component of the weapon), hopefully stop him permanently.
VardaValar1: Do something to his home base artifact that powers the mobile part?
VardaValar1: Does he have apprentices to take up his work if he falls?
Ar-Pharazon-V: We have no idea where to intercept him, since he went northwest from Mirkwood. Maybe we hope to scout him as we go.
Eonwe Valar: The part I can't figure out is why on earth we would take the sword to Angmar. There's no logical reason to me, so of course my natural response is, "We shouldn't."
Ar-Pharazon-V: Maybe we're hoping said apprentices can't do anything without the staffpiece.
Arien V: well we need to find the other half of the artefact to destry it dont we?
VardaValar1: Unless it's needed to destroy the base object.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Maybe we're hoping to use the completed weapon against him?
VardaValar1: Reverse the polarity.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Ah yes :-)
VardaValar1: Elrond would be against that, like using the Ring?
VardaValar1: but use it to poison the well, so to speak?
Ar-Pharazon-V: So why would we bring it with us? We could also just go there and find out they've already made 40 more.
Eonwe Valar: If we're working off the idea that a being pulled a Sauron on this item, to whatever degree it was capable of doing so, I think that yes, Elrond would be against that.
VardaValar1: It can only be made out of this particular treated piece of meteoric iron....
Ar-Pharazon-V: Or maybe we hope to use it to track the sorcerer to intercept him, since it might point us to the other piece.
VardaValar1: A tracking device for the main object?
Ar-Pharazon-V: Yes.
VardaValar1: Then we overload the main object by adding the forty spares...
Ar-Pharazon-V: Next question being, of course, how can a sword function as a tracker?
Arien V: wasnt it used as communication device of sorts>?#
VardaValar1: Not really a sword, but a magical device
Ar-Pharazon-V: Maybe Auros looks up at it and finds out it's turned on the table a bit, pointing northeast, without his own intervention.. and he gets an idea!
Eonwe Valar: Using very vague words here, if the part that we have "harmonizes" with the part he has, how would he not also know we are coming when we have it?
VardaValar1: Because he has forty spares? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehehe
Ar-Pharazon-V: Yes, but we don't know that ;-)
VardaValar1: Good point. All of a sudden it gets fits of working, or lag stutter.
VardaValar1: We don't know its affecting his doo-hickey, but it's why he has a zillion baddies waiting to kill us and take it.
VardaValar1: and knows right where we are.
VardaValar1: Ok, lead-line it, so to speak?
Ar-Pharazon-V: We could analyze it and find out that it's receiving a signal, but not emitting one...
Ar-Pharazon-V: or is that a bit too Sci-fi? :-)
VardaValar1: Find out it can be jammed. Use our device to jam.
VardaValar1: We use our own terms, then alter them to fit Middle-earth.
Ar-Pharazon-V: sounds good!
VardaValar1: Like that magic rock that bursts into flame, explodes. Black powder.
Eonwe Valar: If we can figure out some precedence that fits Tolkien's world, sure. I don't just want to plaster the words "Elven magic" on a solution and call it a day, hehe.
Ar-Pharazon-V: So we carry it in a lead container or whatever, and occasionally whip it out to see where we have to go, and hope sorcerer doesn't notice.
VardaValar1: Just at that moment, the crebain flock turns and heads our way. The lid comes back down and the crebain break up, confused. hmmm
VardaValar1: If this is the only piece and so important, seems as if it would have been better guarded.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Which is why we can assume it's not, but don't know for sure :-)
VardaValar1: It may have been one of several pieces being tested by expendables in case it blew up.
Arien V: maybe somebody lost it?
VardaValar1: We kind of killed them. *cough*
Eonwe Valar: Well, if the Ring were so important, it seems it would have been better guarded :}
Ar-Pharazon-V: Maybe the orc we killed was part of the group that tested out the weapon, and it was split up and taken among separate paths to make sure the enemy couldn't get their hands on the whole thing at once.
VardaValar1: Hidden under a goblin kingdom under the bottom of the mountain, held by a hidden cannibal.
Ar-Pharazon-V: With the decoy orc taking the sword, because there's so many more of them.
VardaValar1: Good thought, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe the orc didn't know what it had yet. Maybe the villian was on his way to collect that piece. But then, I'm sure we discussed that section of the story and I just don't remember :}
VardaValar1: Several tests were going on. At least one on Thranduil's magic gate, trying to bypass it.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Or maybe 3 dozen orcs were outfitted with the swords, so at least one of them would be able to complete the weapon at the testsite if the others were discovered.
Eonwe Valar: *don't remember what exactly we determined happened there.
VardaValar1: The orcs were probably supposed to turn their items over to Calaron at some point and we broke up the party.
VardaValar1: Our characters didn't know exactly what was going on.
Ar-Pharazon-V: All the more reason why they would have a tracking device in them. We can assume the orc would've known how to use it in case he got lost.
VardaValar1: GPS locator jammed by Elrond's Ring currently
Ar-Pharazon-V: Yep.
VardaValar1: They were supposed to bring the experimental items with them, under supervision of their group leaders.
VardaValar1: Maybe we got a "defective" one they didn't care much about.
VardaValar1: So they didn't work hard to relocate it when we were traveling.
VardaValar1: Auros fixes it and it suddenly starts working.
Arien V: interesting thought
Ar-Pharazon-V: Hmm, there was some dust obscuring this rune...
VardaValar1: *just move this loose rivet here*
VardaValar1: *someone's big ol' axe marred this rune*
VardaValar1: It looked like another rune to the lore-masters, but if you fix this injury to the weapon, its another entirely.
Ar-Pharazon-V: That works :-)
VardaValar1: *it's
Arien V: yup
VardaValar1: We haven't left yet because we don't know what to do about the sorceror except hunt and kill him if we can.
VardaValar1: We need more intel, and that provided by Auros will be our trigger.
Arien V: werent we waiting until we were ready to just do that?
VardaValar1: Meanwhile we wave goodbye to the Fellowship.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Going blind into Angmar's ruins and going pew pew until something happens?
Ar-Pharazon-V: So Auros' discovery gives us a means to hunt, and when we find him we can kill him and destroy the staffpiece and continue to investigate to find the sword-making industry which is suddenly crippled because without the staff they're just nicely decorated pieces of sharp metal.
Ar-Pharazon-V: At least, that's the plan...
Eonwe Valar: The point of making the sword connected to the staff was to unite two loose threads that both had some importance in the story beyond what a normal weapon would have. If these swords are being mass-produced, that negates any reason or any sense in a connection to the staff, and then leaves me wondering why it would have such a profound impact on a Dwarf, of all people, who are usually more resilient to the kind of influence it seems to have had on Frali.
VardaValar1: I never did understand why a dwarf would be the most affected.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Sure, at first glance they look like a party from Dol Guldur, until you notice the trail of orc corpses and ravaged campsites they leave in their wake. But by the time you suspect something, they're already on you...
Ar-Pharazon-V: Well, Eonwe, the way I see it...
VardaValar1: We need a reason for it to afffect a dwarf so much. And aye - not mass-produced.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Staff is the main weapon, but it does not have all the components, maybe because it's bad to have it sitting in one place, or maybe because it takes something out of the weapon to use, and you want the staff not to expend itself on its first try.
VardaValar1: Several experimental attempts, this being one of two or three.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Which is why there are the swords - the keys to the staff's lock.
VardaValar1: Like loading it with a bullet.
VardaValar1: Keys, ahh.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Easy to spread around, easy to hide as swords, and you only need one for a weaponized use, though it'll probably break the sword in the process.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Yeah, bullets works as well as a metaphor.
VardaValar1: Maybe the different keys give different effects to the staff.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Also possible.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Judging by the state of the sword, it is possibly already used, which is why it's not functional right now.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Which is what Eonwe's about to change.
Ar-Pharazon-V: *Auros
Ar-Pharazon-V: Or maybe it's not used yet, but faulty, or indeed just a loose rivet or messed up rune.
VardaValar1: Discharged. Maybe damaged.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Right.
Arien V: so it would not have the desired effect
Eonwe Valar: Except if you put the wrong key in a lock, it doesn't turn, and we'd then have to assume that the villian has the knowledge and power requisite to recreate a working key.\
Arien V: an effect that wasnt wanted ortargeted the wrong race
Ar-Pharazon-V: It would take a lot of work to recreate the staff, if it can even be done in reasonable time (maybe that needs the meteor fragment!) but the swords can be mass-produced as ammo.
VardaValar1: Aye, part of the damage. Would be useful for the sorceror to know that unintended effect.
Ar-Pharazon-V: That could work.
Ar-Pharazon-V: But if it didn't, it would explain why the sorcerer is not so intent on retrieving the faulty piece.
VardaValar1: I don't actually think there were many swords, just a few to test effects on a live target.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Perhaps. Perhaps not. Maybe there were a few, and now they know it works kinda, they'll make more or improve on them.
Ar-Pharazon-V: So we have a piece that doesn't work right, maybe because it was made wrong as an experimental piece, maybe because it was used in the initial testing. Maybe sorcerer's after it, maybe he isn't, as he knows more are in the make.
VardaValar1: But limited number due to limited staves.
VardaValar1: The sorceror isn't going to want every goblin in the mountains to be using them. He'll want to hang onto his power.
Eonwe Valar: So why would the sword then have the effect it has/had on Frali? Doesn't sound like it takes much to create. If it can be mass-produced, either they've got a Yogg-Saron in their basement siphoning off its power, or it's just not that much to begin with.
VardaValar1: Have to be just a few, maybe operating for one staff. This one appears not to have worked right in the experiment, was about to be junked anyway.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Mass-production is a relative term. It might mean there are 20, it might mean there are 500. But there is some spellwork going on with each one of them.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Yeah, could be a few.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Maybe affecting dwarves is one of the faulty side-effects.
Eonwe Valar: Mass-production implies it could be created frequently and efficiently.
VardaValar1: It didn't work on the elves. It's junk.
VardaValar1: Wrong frequency. Fix it and now Frali is stuck with carrying it as the only one not affected.
Ar-Pharazon-V: Auros, what did you do? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: hehe
June 23rd, 2019t seems as if he's remembering the call rather than telling it to us.
With a sigh, Auros added, "I suspect the answers can be found in Angmar. That is where the spirit inhabiting Calion's brother is heading, and it seems he has invited me to find him there."
So this is a reply to the "invited me to find him"
Eonwe ValarToday at 5:41 PM
He's remembering Calaron's words to him.
Ar-Pharazon-VToday at 5:41 PM
Well, that happened way back in Mirkwood.
Indeed, it was Calaron that made the invite.
VardaToday at 5:41 PM
ahh , ok, so not a new one from the weapon.
Eonwe ValarToday at 5:42 PM
It's clearer when the posts don't take a year to write, lol. My fault of course, but yeah, that was supposed to be remembering Calaron's words in Mirkwood.
VardaToday at 5:42 PM
Changed.
Maybe a reference back to that would help?
Eonwe ValarToday at 5:43 PM
That's what the next line was supposed to make clear :}
'With a sigh, Auros added, "I suspect the answers can be found in Angmar. That is where the spirit inhabiting Calion's brother is heading, and it seems he has invited me to find him there." '
VardaToday at 5:44 PM
Okie dokie.
Eonwe ValarToday at 5:44 PM
Italics as I've done to indicate Auros' inner thought, double quotes to indicate dialogue, then a line after to indicate where that memory came from.
Makes sense in my head if nowhere else :}
VardaToday at 5:45 PM
My error came from thinking the dagger talked to him while being examined.
Quite a leap really.
Ar-Pharazon-VToday at 5:45 PM
Indeed, the source of the invite... it could've been possible :smiley:
Eonwe ValarToday at 5:46 PM
Well, I think in this version (yes version, I've been through a few) I did leave in indications that there may be more than Auros is discussing.
VardaToday at 5:46 PM
Leave him more to tell or reveal in the future. : )
ArienValarToday at 5:48 PM
sees a ghostly scythe in front of Auros "foollooow meee .. if iss ansswers you seek first askk you musst .. foooloow me
Eonwe ValarToday at 5:48 PM
For those who like visual examples, I think something like the begining of the Fellowship of the Ring movie where Gandalf stoops over to touch the Ring would be close enough to what I'm going for.