Now What at 60?
Oct 3, 2005 22:06:40 GMT -5
Post by Eonwë on Oct 3, 2005 22:06:40 GMT -5
They say third time's a charm, so let's take this for one more spin, and this time I'll include the all-powerful quotation blocks for super-improved clarity action! (sounds like a commercial on purpose)
The name may already be picked by two other guilds (or more) who already have formed an alliance perhaps with a board into which we may be invited. In that case it is simply join or forget and often the largest guild/s deside who they invite. Or if we are lucky we get a vote on it. Many scenarios are possible.
Exactly. We will probably have to join into some alliance and take it as it is. The question really is: "Are we willing to do so for an oportunity to play the end game?"
Sounds like the suggestion of joining one of these alliances I don't like to me. My response on alliances was to this.
So, to ensure I'm clear, I will repeat what I said before (this is the part that says what level 60s can do). I have no problems with our Guild arranging raids or whatever with others, whether they be a group or individual, so long as we have things in common as far as honor and such.
This is where I say, for the third time, that I have no problems setting up something like we tried to do with the Keepers of the Fellowship, which after reading Elatan's most recent post, seems more or less what he was trying to express.
What you say would be wonderful Eonwe, but in the world of gaming it is totally unrealistic.
What exactly is unrealistic about the above option? We've done it for the last 8 years, and it all of a sudden doesn't work now? Yes, I know bnet and MMOs are two different creatures, but again, we tried it with the KotF, and it wasn't because it was a bad idea that it failed.
I see no realistic oportunity for Valar to meet your standards and take part on a regular basis in the end game.
So,... we can't find other guilds with values like honor, courtesy, cameraderie outside of these alliances? I don't recall demanding they be Tolkien fans, so it can't be that.
I do not believe I am "jumping ship" as I believe the ship is aground.
You're not the first who has chosen to focus your efforts outside of the WoW branch. In fact, we had people bailing within the first month. We did leave the harbor, right?
Run aground, you say? Let's take a look at this.
1.)Everquest had maybe at it's heyday 15 Guild members and at one point at least 10, and they were all scattered across different servers. There could've been a guild branch, had they all wanted to get together on one server and someone wanted to set it up.
2.)Dark Age of Camelot had a smooth start it seemed, but things began to wane, some problems arose, concessions as to how the Valar Guild does things were made in the interest of saving the branch, and in the end the branch collapsed. It had maybe 12-15 honest-to-goodness Valar Guild members in it at its prime, and I'm probably being generous with that estimation.
3.)World of Warcraft had a bit of a bumpy ride getting the 10 signatures together and getting the 10 gold for the tabard design. It had a bit of a bumpy start in that at most maybe three people were playing at any given time in the beginning, if you were lucky. Today, we have 21 Full Valar Guild members and 1 Member of Honor for a total of 22 Valar Guild members. That's at least as good as we used to do on D2. At least pairings between guild members occur fairly regularly. I've seen at least 6 guild members on at once on some days, particularly on Friday and Saturday. We may not have a couple of reports in our Guild questing, but the numbers on during Guild questing time are pretty good and I think the missing reports are because some people don't like to write them.
Sure some Guild members play on other servers for one reason or another, but by far, the World of Warcraft branch has the most concentration of Guild members in one place since bnet. Many have logged into one or more of their characters during the week, and the 1+ month crowd is filled primarily with alts. Not to mention we've actually got 5 Valar honor members on this game who at times will actually all cross paths at the same time. I don't remember the last time that happened at a meeting or in a game.
All in all, I'd say the WoW branch is doing pretty darn good compared to our ventures into other MMOs. With active recruiting in some form fitting the Valar Guild, we could do quite well. As we have on the Recruiting Handbook, "This is something to do when you notice you need more guild people on at your time to play with!" Every other guild finds a way to recruit. So can we.
Anyway, back to the quotes.
This is going far beyond reasonable and it seems it is the word Alliance that does it.
I suppose to some degree, yes, this comes down to semantics. Seeing as how words have meaning, and this particular one has certain connotations in the gaming world, it's understandable. I've seen a couple of alliances and their rules. I don't like them. I don't think they're what the Guild needs. Also, to paraphrase you, Elatan, "if they are allies then what is everyone else? obviously not allies."
But, when interacting with other people in other guilds you can not expect them to go intirely by our rules, you can try to persuade them that our way is the best way and thats it.
We can expect a level of civility, the reason for my saying we should have certain things in common. Are we going to team up with the 1337 pwnzors and listen to them call us or themselves n00b or worse? I seriously doubt it and hope I'm right. There are some things I don't say to my friends and there are some things they don't say to me. I'm not talking about by-the-letter our rules here, though it would be sad to have our youngest members denied a raid due to the language of a group. I would rather work with people all our members can game with. If we have things like honor, loyalty, comeraderie in common, chances are there'll be little difference between our rules in the ones that matter.
So, for a fifth time, Ulmo, you want to set something up like we tried with the KotF, go for it. You get to be the go-between and coordinate it. Let's see what our individual and separate guilds can agree on. You've already begun the work by checking them out, so it's yours. Your call.
I can't make it any clearer than that.
Eonwë
P.S. Disregard the time stamps on my quotes. I used copy/paste to get them in.
elatan said:
The name may already be picked by two other guilds (or more) who already have formed an alliance perhaps with a board into which we may be invited. In that case it is simply join or forget and often the largest guild/s deside who they invite. Or if we are lucky we get a vote on it. Many scenarios are possible.
Ulmo said:
Exactly. We will probably have to join into some alliance and take it as it is. The question really is: "Are we willing to do so for an oportunity to play the end game?"
Sounds like the suggestion of joining one of these alliances I don't like to me. My response on alliances was to this.
Eonwe said:
So, to ensure I'm clear, I will repeat what I said before (this is the part that says what level 60s can do). I have no problems with our Guild arranging raids or whatever with others, whether they be a group or individual, so long as we have things in common as far as honor and such.
This is where I say, for the third time, that I have no problems setting up something like we tried to do with the Keepers of the Fellowship, which after reading Elatan's most recent post, seems more or less what he was trying to express.
Ulmo said:
What you say would be wonderful Eonwe, but in the world of gaming it is totally unrealistic.
What exactly is unrealistic about the above option? We've done it for the last 8 years, and it all of a sudden doesn't work now? Yes, I know bnet and MMOs are two different creatures, but again, we tried it with the KotF, and it wasn't because it was a bad idea that it failed.
Ulmo said:
I see no realistic oportunity for Valar to meet your standards and take part on a regular basis in the end game.
So,... we can't find other guilds with values like honor, courtesy, cameraderie outside of these alliances? I don't recall demanding they be Tolkien fans, so it can't be that.
Ulmo said:
I do not believe I am "jumping ship" as I believe the ship is aground.
You're not the first who has chosen to focus your efforts outside of the WoW branch. In fact, we had people bailing within the first month. We did leave the harbor, right?
Run aground, you say? Let's take a look at this.
1.)Everquest had maybe at it's heyday 15 Guild members and at one point at least 10, and they were all scattered across different servers. There could've been a guild branch, had they all wanted to get together on one server and someone wanted to set it up.
2.)Dark Age of Camelot had a smooth start it seemed, but things began to wane, some problems arose, concessions as to how the Valar Guild does things were made in the interest of saving the branch, and in the end the branch collapsed. It had maybe 12-15 honest-to-goodness Valar Guild members in it at its prime, and I'm probably being generous with that estimation.
3.)World of Warcraft had a bit of a bumpy ride getting the 10 signatures together and getting the 10 gold for the tabard design. It had a bit of a bumpy start in that at most maybe three people were playing at any given time in the beginning, if you were lucky. Today, we have 21 Full Valar Guild members and 1 Member of Honor for a total of 22 Valar Guild members. That's at least as good as we used to do on D2. At least pairings between guild members occur fairly regularly. I've seen at least 6 guild members on at once on some days, particularly on Friday and Saturday. We may not have a couple of reports in our Guild questing, but the numbers on during Guild questing time are pretty good and I think the missing reports are because some people don't like to write them.
Sure some Guild members play on other servers for one reason or another, but by far, the World of Warcraft branch has the most concentration of Guild members in one place since bnet. Many have logged into one or more of their characters during the week, and the 1+ month crowd is filled primarily with alts. Not to mention we've actually got 5 Valar honor members on this game who at times will actually all cross paths at the same time. I don't remember the last time that happened at a meeting or in a game.
All in all, I'd say the WoW branch is doing pretty darn good compared to our ventures into other MMOs. With active recruiting in some form fitting the Valar Guild, we could do quite well. As we have on the Recruiting Handbook, "This is something to do when you notice you need more guild people on at your time to play with!" Every other guild finds a way to recruit. So can we.
Anyway, back to the quotes.
Elatan said:
This is going far beyond reasonable and it seems it is the word Alliance that does it.
I suppose to some degree, yes, this comes down to semantics. Seeing as how words have meaning, and this particular one has certain connotations in the gaming world, it's understandable. I've seen a couple of alliances and their rules. I don't like them. I don't think they're what the Guild needs. Also, to paraphrase you, Elatan, "if they are allies then what is everyone else? obviously not allies."
Elatan said:
But, when interacting with other people in other guilds you can not expect them to go intirely by our rules, you can try to persuade them that our way is the best way and thats it.
We can expect a level of civility, the reason for my saying we should have certain things in common. Are we going to team up with the 1337 pwnzors and listen to them call us or themselves n00b or worse? I seriously doubt it and hope I'm right. There are some things I don't say to my friends and there are some things they don't say to me. I'm not talking about by-the-letter our rules here, though it would be sad to have our youngest members denied a raid due to the language of a group. I would rather work with people all our members can game with. If we have things like honor, loyalty, comeraderie in common, chances are there'll be little difference between our rules in the ones that matter.
So, for a fifth time, Ulmo, you want to set something up like we tried with the KotF, go for it. You get to be the go-between and coordinate it. Let's see what our individual and separate guilds can agree on. You've already begun the work by checking them out, so it's yours. Your call.
I can't make it any clearer than that.
Eonwë
P.S. Disregard the time stamps on my quotes. I used copy/paste to get them in.