Now What at 60?

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

Lately I have been raiding with another guild called "Illuminati". This first came about because all guilds are short of healers, and many of mages as well. It has been a lot of fun.

They have told me that should I ever choose to leave Valar I would be most welcome with them. I have told them a bit about Valar, and that we are not just a WoW guild, and that Valar members are not just my gaming acquaintances, but some are long time friends. I have explained that even though leaving Valar is really the only way I can fully experience life after 60 in WoW it is not such an easy thing to do, if even only 1 toon and only for a part of my gaming experience. They have been very understanding about my dilemma. They then extended an invitation to all high level Valar through me.

As some of you already know I am not happy with not being able to do the high level group and raid instances except for pick up groups. Many of you who have already done Scholo, Strath, BRS, DM, etc. in pick up groups probably know how I feel and why.

I think it would be accurate to say that Valar will never raid level 60 instances. We can't even group one, never mind field 10, 15, 20 or 40 to do the raids. So what do Valar members like myself do to experience this part of the game?

Before I come to any conclusions about how I will resolve my gaming "needs" I would like to hear from some of you. Do we individually remove our 60s and join other guilds? Do we as a group choose another guild we will move our 60s to together? Do we keep starting new toons to play every time one gets to 60 and just use the 60s to farm and assist other Valar? Are there any other viable options?

[Elatan]

I am not sure what I will do, I still havent reached 60 yet with my first, I still miss 6 levels and have a hard time to get there due to timediff and such. But I can tell what I kind of expected and thought as a possibility.

Basicly that same as what I, and my guild, did in DaoC. We made alliances with a common chat (much like the Valarchat in WoW)
Now DaoC had much much more expanded possibilities for alliances. 2 guilds created an alliance with a chat and they were then in control of which other guilds they wanted in or move out of the alliance and how to manage the alliance chat. This is not possible in WoW but I should think some sort of copying the idear is possible with an "Alliancechat" with some few simple rules to keep such a chat clear of spam. Each guild resposible of informing their members of rules and remove members who can not stick to the rules.

Anyway I would not like to abandon Valar to join another guild simply to in on raids or high end instances. If we begin to do that I see no reason to maintain the guild at all in WoW.

In my eyes I see two ways of which I only like one. Establish an Alliance chat for contacts and friends/other guilds.

This would not be the same as the channel for guildfriends as we most likely will hear words and stuff generally not approved in the Valar but that may have to be as it will.
Basicly it would serve as a channel to hear and announce raids and high instances within a wider circle of people that would be more reliable than pick up groups. It would help people like me and all others for that matter to find better groups and establish friends.

Could that solve the problem with the 60`s ?

[ArPharazon]

Indeed, we do the same thing with our European guild, the High Guard. There are plenty of us to handle the 5-man instances at high levels, but for the instance-raids (class-raids, MC, Zul'Gurub) we have established an Alliance with other honorable guilds, and this is working out quite well. We have a common channel, an alliance-section on our forum (where we organise the raids), and good friendship between the members. It almost seems like we're actually one guild at times.

You might like to try it, if the Valarguild isn't big enough for the end-game content on its own.

[Varda]

If we remove our level 60's from the Valar Guild, that certainly insures that we will never have enough. I too would like to do high level instances with my 60.

I like the idea of making a separate channel, like our Valar channel, to work with other guilds for high instances.

This will in no way mean that they or we are joining the other guild, merely working with them.

We may run into problems if we try to do an alliance channel with more than one other guild. Do try to check out the other guild before offering our alliance channel! How do we pick with whom we ally, and what if the other guilds want to ally with a group we don't want? Just grin and bear it? If take just any other guild, we might as well go back to public pickup groups.

What do you want to do if another guild becomes extremely unpleasant and we wish to cease the alliance? All I can see to do is to make a new channel for those who wish to continue together.

Do we only put the alliance channel on our raid characters, or make ourselves available from any character?

We need a channel name. Suggestions?
"Mellon" might be familiar to outsiders.
"Meldor" for "friends".
"Ohtarmen" means "warrior way".
"Allies" if we want to just leave Tolkien. I would like very much to keep some tiny bit of Tolkien if possible. I don't think the other groups will much care as long as they have a channel. But in any case, we should not name the channel after any one of the guilds, such as Valar or Illuminati.

[Varda]

I made an Alliance area on the WoW section.

I suggest making a thread with the name of the befriended guild, then posting expected times and places of instance gaming, using EST.

[Elatan]

I do not know how or when or what specifigly to do but one thing I know and think we will have to realize is Valar is a small guild in a huge world and thus may have to accept things we would not allow within our own ranks if we would like to keep chars and at the same time be able to join larger scale raids and do high end instances.

What chars one will join in on a channel is up to the player. The name may already be picked by two other guilds (or more) who already have formed an alliance perhaps with a board into which we may be invited. In that case it is simply join or forget and often the largest guild/s deside who they invite. Or if we are lucky we get a vote on it. Many scenarios are possible.

The only thing I can say right now is I understand the need Ulmo express for venturing further into the game and the problem of how to reach it without leaving and joining another guild.

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

Elatan said:

What chars one will join in on a channel is up to the player. The name may already be picked by two other guilds (or more) who already have formed an alliance perhaps with a board into which we may be invited. In that case it is simply join or forget and often the largest guild/s deside who they invite. Or if we are lucky we get a vote on it. Many scenarios are possible.

Exactly. We will probably have to join into some alliance and take it as it is. The question really is: "Are we willing to do so for an oportunity to play the end game?"

I am presently getting to know Illuminati better. I forsee an oportunity here. I have already asked about froming an alliance and am getting some good feedback. If anyone is on in the evenings (VST) and would like to try raiding with them send me a tell. I will try to get you invited. They are about 30 members, most of which are level 60. They need more to raid MC successfully. We won't totally resolve their issue, but we could help and I think we will get a fair shake and be able to raid with some pleasant people.

[Elatan]

I am interested in any oportunity we may get. For raids, alliance, whatever that opens up for us.

[Eonwë]

ulmo said:

Exactly. We will probably have to join into some alliance and take it as it is. The question really is: "Are we willing to do so for an oportunity to play the end game?"

I for one am not.

This all boils down to stuff we've discussed a hundred times before, and at this point, I don't feel like mentioning it again.

I've also said my peace about alliances. I don't care if we're the top dog or the bottom of the barrel, my thoughts still stand.

My thoughts on both of the above are not hard to find should you wish to go looking.

In addition, if our recent history has taught us anything, it's that joining alliances and lowering our expectations are not going to solve our problems.

That said, I don't have problems arranging to get together with other groups for the purposes of raiding or whatever, so long as we have similarities such as honor, generosity, and comeraderie, and we remain separate entities. If we don't have these in common, we have no business having dealings with them in the first place.


For the sake of brevity, I will leave it there.

Eonwë

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

You haven't answered my question concerning what a 60 does as a member of Valar Eonwe.

[Eonwë]

Actually, I did, as much as any else who's posted, when I said :

--------------------------------------------------------
That said, I don't have problems arranging to get together with other groups for the purposes of raiding or whatever, so long as we have similarities such as honor, generosity, and comeraderie, and we remain separate entities. If we don't have these in common, we have no business having dealings with them in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------


Now, if you want to know what my level 60 does, that I haven't answered because you haven't asked, here it is in no particular order.

1.) I try to get to 300 Blacksmithing so I can make better stuff for any guild member who wants it when I get the materials. This includes hunting for Thorium and other materials required in blacksmithing plans.

2.) I turn in extra runecloth for rep just for the heck of it.

3.) I save up for my epic mount quest so that one day I can actually get through the first part of it.

4.) I play in areas I enjoy going through while doing 1.) through 3.)

5.) I go back and complete quests that got missed or got picked up in a guild group but never completed for various reasons. This includes instance quests.

6.) I help members with quests that they need help with, usually instance or elite quests. I remember how hard it was for me to find people willing to go back into an instance I still had quests for but they were done with, so I generally make myself available to help members do these instances when I have time. I don't have alot of time to play WoW during the semester, so I'd rather spend what time I have with friends, even if it's only one or two out of the entire group. If that means I don't see the inside of Blackrock Spire until Christmas, I can live with that. If I do happen to get a chance at Blackrock Spire before then, great. Yes, I realize I don't speak for everyone.


Yes, I would like to go to Scholomance, Stratholme, Zul Gurub, and all those other big high-level instances, but I'm not willing to subordinate the Valar Guild to do so. I already said what I think of alliances before this game even came out, and I stand by it today. Not being in an alliance won't stop us from gaming with likeminded groups(that includes guilds) or individuals, and we have say over who we game with and how. We have always stood on our own two feet, and I see no reason why we shouldn't now.

If anyone recalls, we did at one time attempt to set up gaming with another guild by the name of the Keepers of the Fellowship, who unfortunately disbanded shortly after. We were trying to set up a game name separate from our guilds' standard games so those interested in gaming together had more options, but we each had our separate rules and enforced them at the discretion of our indivudal Guilds, not at the discretion of the other, and not at that of some grand alliance.

So, to ensure I'm clear, I will repeat what I said before (this is the part that says what level 60s can do). I have no problems with our Guild arranging raids or whatever with others, whether they be a group or individual, so long as we have things in common as far as honor and such. Obviously we will need to agree on some looting etiquette as well. However, if we have nothing in common, if we have to lower ourselves to fit with them, I don't see why we'd be involved in such a pairing. We've tried that already, and it didn't work.

I rely on luck to proc as a Paladin. I have no interest in relying on luck to proc on whether or not the Valar Guild gets to decide something for itself.

There we go, tried brevity the first time and ended up with a paper the second time.


Eonwë

[Ulmo 1997-2011]

What you say would be wonderful Eonwe, but in the world of gaming it is totally unrealistic. That being said I guess each of us individually has to decide how we will deal with being 60 and how to experience the game. I see no realistic oportunity for Valar to meet your standards and take part on a regular basis in the end game. I am therefore removing Niequi and Linqil from Valar. I am not quitting Valar, as I believe that I Dave am really the member, not my WoW toons. I do not believe I am "jumping ship" as I believe the ship is aground.

[Varda]

I do not see why we have to join another guild to participate in their raids, if our character is friendly with the other guild. Why can't we just go along while still being in our guild?

If we pull out of Valar when we hit 60, then we make the prophecy of being unable to raid self-fulfilling.

[Varda]

Since we no longer seem to need the Alliance thread since our Alliance contact no longer exists, I will remove it.

[Elatan]

This is going far beyond reasonable and it seems it is the word Alliance that does it.
Because I introduced the word here I think it would be fair I try to further explain what I initially placed in the word and what not.

1. A common channel members of both or more guilds could join.
In a common channel you can not expect everyone to hold a standard as in Valar guildchat but at the other hand it is free to join or dispand from if you do not like it.

2. Access to both or more guilds forums for socializing and inform of raids / quests. How deep an access should go is up to individual guilds.

Thats really all folks.

I did not mention anything about joining another guild or lower our own standards within our guild.
But, when interacting with other people in other guilds you can not expect them to go intirely by our rules, you can try to persuade them that our way is the best way and thats it.
If I or others do not like how any particular group or guild handle loot or speech, dont go with them on hunts or visit their forums but dismissing it all before even tried is silly.