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LOOT
Jan 17, 2005 22:42:20 GMT -5
Post by Ulmo 1997-2011 on Jan 17, 2005 22:42:20 GMT -5
I have only been playing WoW for a little over a week now and I just have to address the subject of loot. It was never really a problem in Diablo or D2 that i recall, but I see trouble coming. Ok, I have encountered actions I can't abide by already.
To begin with; I am a really big fan of NBG, which is need before greed for those who don't know the anacronym. I don't mean the NBG looting format in the game, I mean the theory. Whenever a good item or high end trade skill item drops; I believe it should be rolled on by only those who can actually use it, provided they will in fact use it.
Should an item drop that only 1 member of the group can wear; it should automatically go to that person, provided it would be an upgrade or alternate use item and actually be worn. If an item drops that 2 or more would use then those 2 or more only roll on the item. If no one would actually use the item then all should roll for it as a sell item to raise cash or whatever. Typing "/random 101" is the command for a random number generator and can be used to decide the winner.
Many people have multiple characters. But I believe all loot for any group should be based on the toons present only. The fact that an alt could use an item dropped I don't believe is reason to keep it over a group member getting it, even if just to sell to raise cash. Most loot is sold, and is one of the best ways to provide income to support gaming needs. The needs of the group should be the priority of the group, alts are like other people who aren't there. If individuals choose to save items, gear, trade components, etc. that they have acquired for others; that is great, and it is their right to do so. But these choices have nothing to do with deciding the fate of anything that drops on a group outing unless the entire group chooses so.
We need a guild policy on this before hard feelings come about.
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LOOT
Jan 18, 2005 0:22:59 GMT -5
Post by Alatar on Jan 18, 2005 0:22:59 GMT -5
This is an important topic. It may seem less so, right now, as everyone playing is a longtime Valar Guild member and we're known to each other for many years from D2X and other games. We think little of helping each other with our crafting skills, or giving each other good items of loot that are found.
But, as our guild begins to recruit and add new members on Lothar, this will become an issue. Loot rules seem silly and rigid, but if they are clearly expressed and understood in advance, it really serves to quash any arguing.
We should develop two sets of rules, Group Loot rules and Raid Loot rules. Raids are special cases where the raid leader is providing a service by leading where they presumably have some expertise. That has tremendous value to the raid, and the raid leader is therefore entitled to some consideration.
In DAOC, raid leaders always got to make one item claim, in advance, if a particular item was know to potentially fall. It was understood that, if you went on this raid, you were not getting the dragon's head (for example) because that was claimed by the raid leader.
Loot was sorted then into category based on quality. The highest quality loot was lottoed as 100% use for the characters present. Lotto was done by /random command. Bots did not roll.
After the high quality loot was lottoed, then there was usually a Free For All round. Everyone could roll, regardless of use (again, excepting bots). At ANY point, in EITHER round, if you won ANY item, you were done rolling.
Trash loot was usually just passed out.
Now, run of the mill groups are not run so carefully. I would suggest three simple rules.
One, looting is set for FFA. Items picked up are displayed to all in the group, so no one can hide what is found. This spares us from having to have each group member loot each corpse to get their random loot. (Although I HIGHLY recommend Group Loot for pick up groups!) I would also recommend turning off the automatic item lotto and doing it manually. People might reflexively click yes on an item they really wouldn't roll for if they thought for a second.
Two, items are given first to characters present who can use that item. If there are two or more characters fitting that profile, then we use the /random command to decide the winner. EXCEPTION TO THE RULE: At times, for the sake of the group, we might ask someone to play a specific class. In that case, if they tell us in advance that they are proxy looting for an alt, we will consider the alt instead for purposes of use. You cannot bounce back and forth. If we ask you to play your priest, but you want loot for your warlock, once the proxy looting is declared you cannot go back for a priest item. You are, for loot purposes, a warlock that night.
Three, if none can use and no proxy loot applies, then any who wish to roll on any item can do so. Example: A shield drops. The group is all casters, no one can use a shield. No one has requested a loot proxy. So, when the shield drops, any who wish to have the item can ask to roll on it. If you pick it up and don't want it, ask who does. If you want it, ask if anyone wishes to roll on the item with you. If you see someone get an item you want, ask them if they want to roll on it with you. If they don't want it, they'll usually just hand it over.
Now, please, common sense has to prevail. If someone is asking for items CLEARLY to hoard them for coin, this needs to be dealt with. We are all friends and colleagues in this guild. The guild prospers as its members prosper individually, and the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts. This was the principle of The Fellowship, and it's at the heart of the Valar Guild.
That's my two coppers. *bows*
~ Alatar
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,322
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LOOT
Jan 18, 2005 2:02:50 GMT -5
Post by Eonwë on Jan 18, 2005 2:02:50 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this for a while as well, and have had some input on the situation. I will comment tonight after classes. For now, though, I must get some sleep :}
Take care and good night :} Eonwë
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LOOT
Jan 18, 2005 11:06:03 GMT -5
Post by arathorn on Jan 18, 2005 11:06:03 GMT -5
I think there is another issue to consider here that I have come across constantly, specifically in elite quests. In an elite quest so many things are happening at once battle wise that looting really becomes a secondary factor. If one stops to start discussing and mulling over every single loot, unfortunately death ensues. Attacks come from all angles and many players (as Alatar said specifically in ad hoc formed groups) rush around and ahead far too quickly leaving the group disassembled. Many times loots have been left because some players don't loot the corpse so others can't (they run ahead and start killing without waiting for a plan or seeing if after a portion of the battle and things have settled down, the looting that may have been missed can be cleaned up by the group). Another problem that happens because of the design of WoW specifically is that chat gets so harried that messages are missed... when one stops to start discussing loots or even try to catch up on messages (scrollback) and typing a reply respawns happen quickly and again death ensues. I can't tell you HOW many times in a rambunctious group who likes to fight before discussing any kind of strategy I've died just trying to get a reply in I know what Ulmo is referring to as we had an elite group in which we had to grab a 5th fellow who was running ahead a lot causing the group to fragment. I kept saying that loots were being missed but was getting no replies and ran to catch up and heal. By the time I caught up on heal and messages replies to certain ones were late and out of place. I think you will find more problems like this in elite quests depending on who is in the group and what transpires at a given time. Taking time to discuss loots in a harried area may be difficult. The game design itself does not lend itself well to this situation. The problem is making sure all members of a group are in synch as to what the group is about to do and to make sure all have heard and understood. A small chat window makes this difficult I've found. If someone doesn't reply or disagree with a question it is assumed they concur which many times is sadly not the case. They simply missed the message OR are replying to it when all heck breaks loose. In any case, a group shouldn't be abandoned because of missed replies although I do see the frustration that arises from it. Being ignored after asking a question several times even if the reason the replies are late is because of the hectic nature of elite quests can get very annoying. The real problem lies in being able to have a conversation and not "die by typing", which I've had happen too many times <grrr>. I think the real problem lies in the fact that it is not easy to get a group of 5 that you know or play with enough to have agreed previously on how the quest should progress both battle and looting wise. I tried yesterday to get 5 guild members into a group but many were too far away or having connection issues, which is yet another annoyance in game play *sigh*. In any case, my preference has been to play with people I know most of the time in small groups and FFA loot (free for all) then at the end of a given quest we divvy up the goods. I have found a few friends outside of the guild that this works with well too. And within the guild I've played with members and we have swapped or divvied items afterward to the satisfaction of the group even in elite quests. I think that maybe since we now have a guild charter and that members will hopefully be able to quest together more that we have a split off meeting of those playing WoW to agree on how we want to do loots and such so should we get together ad hoc we know at least what we expect from each other and can discuss any variants because of non-guild add-ons (such as Alatar suggested) before jumping into the quest itself. Ulmo introduced the /random concept which I myself knew nothing about (having only played D2X and Counterstrike type games before WoW in a group effort looting and rolling were not in effect in the same way). Although rolling in an elite quest in a tough area may prove tricky (again using FFA in a trusted group and divvying up at the end may be best). As for how to be able to use proper looting rules in heavy respawn areas I welcome suggestions because I have yet to see it work well. Many loots are abandoned in hopes of staying alive (again because group loots only work if everyone loots a given corpse and if any are missed because of hectic battles the loots are useless to many). As it stands I have been trying to play several characters to build up all of the professions to a helpful level and any loot I have accumulated I have given away freely to guild members and quest friends alike (esp younger characters that can get the best benefit out of them as they level). Although I play 2 characters mostly, I have no qualms about jumping to a lower level character to help any initiates which I have been doing at times IF the character can get to the person requiring the help in a decent amount of time... travel is another issue in this game that makes questing together tough (although making a brand new level one will be difficult once I run out of char space ). One other problem are quests themselves. When members of similar level value are not on the same quests that makes it hard to get together as well. No one wants to spend 5 minutes and money flying across the world to do a quest they've completed, yet again (esp the more annoying lengthy ones :-P). I myself loathe the concept and have found it difficult to get aid in a tough area because everyone is just too dang far away. I can't expect them to drop everything for me and no one should expect the same in return. But help when you are close for a tough situation, well, that would be nice ;D (again time permitting, elite quests are lengthy and unless one can gain benefit they shouldn't be expected to jump in unless they want to). Luckily enough a good samaritan is usually close by that can lend a hand (most often in a mutually beneficial way). Hope these opinions and observations help in some fashion.
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LOOT
Jan 18, 2005 16:35:38 GMT -5
Post by Alatar on Jan 18, 2005 16:35:38 GMT -5
Arathorn, I make a great distinction between guild groups and pick up groups. Last night, I was in a pick up group that did three quick quests in Loch Modan. A human rogue, a dwarf hunter and my human paladin. It was NUTS...just plain crazy. We did fine together and no one died, but it was MADNESS. They would scamper from fight to fight like it was some kind of race to see who could kill more. (I found myself thinking about Legolas and Gimli at Helm's Deep.) I eventually stopped fighting at all, to save my mana, and just healed these nutcases. However, we made it through all three quests. No one stopped to chat about ANYTHING. Stuff died, and we all descended on it like loot vultures. That's a classic pick up group. On the other hand, when you and I were grouped for a while, we handed items back and forth without regard to value, only where they would be put to best use. We discussed strategy and how to approach difficult situations. I MUCH prefer playing in that manner. I despise being in a frantic hurry. I hope that turns out to be a classic guild group. I believe much of this is solved when the guild gets enough members of similar level to run guild groups in even the elite quests. Right now, we're still very scattered in our levels. So I say, in an all guild group, use the rules of friends cooperating in the game. In anything else, set it for Group Loot, Lotto on Green or higher, and just scramble like a madman!
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LOOT
Jan 18, 2005 17:41:28 GMT -5
Post by Ulmo 1997-2011 on Jan 18, 2005 17:41:28 GMT -5
The actual details of how the loot will be handled in hectic elite quests is something we will need to tweak out in time. As most of the stuff that drops is bind when worn who actually loots the corpse doesn't matter. If the actual distribution is going to be handled after the quest to facilitate fighting and living till the end; then that may in fact be prudent. It does need to be decided however what the criteria, at least in generality will be. Only then can the actual quest be enjoyed;knowing that the final loot distribution will be fair, and not "let the quickest looter win".
We will soon need to work out a loot policy for raids. However I think this can best be done by discussing how group loots should be handled first.
In almost if not all high end raiding guilds in EQ there is a practice followed that affects all guiild acquired loot. That is that each member declares a Main Character. This main character only is entitled to all member loot priveledges. It doesn't mean that no alt will ever get any, but that all Main Characters have first dibs. What this does is put all members with a raiding character on equal footing for loot. Some people have the time to develop multiple toons and maintain them at raiding level. Others can barely keep one of them up. Regardless, both of these members will have equal access to guild acquired loots. Alatar talks of proxy priveledge to gear a toon not present on raids when an alt is played instead for the betterment of the raid. This might very well be a route we choose to take. In EQ it would never work because all really high end loot is No-Drop aka bind when picked up. I don't know what we will find in WoW.
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,322
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LOOT
Jan 19, 2005 0:19:58 GMT -5
Post by Eonwë on Jan 19, 2005 0:19:58 GMT -5
Greetings,
When I help someone with a quest (as in, I've already completed said quest) I give that person first dibs on anything that drops. This goes for any of the MMO games I've played: D2, ME mod, and WoW. It seems proper to me that way, since this is their quest, and quite likely what drops will help them more than me. Sure, I'm taking time out of my schedule to help, but I don't really give that much thought in this case. It seems I've seen this done many times by many Guild members in D2, and it fits well with our "need before greed" philosophy that I have seen since my joining eons ago.
Therefore, I think in a group of players with a mix of those doing the quest and those helping out, questers should get first dibs, because it will likely help them more. If they don't need, it's up for grabs for whoever needs. After that, it can go for sale or to the enchanter in the group.
This doesn't really apply to raids, since it's assumed the characters are all in the same boat. In this case, I like the ideas suggested.
As for pick-up groups, I'm in favor of using need-before-greed or some other direct form of loot control to ensure a level of fairness to both the person(s) and to members. When I at times do group with people outside the Guild, I all but give up any idea of getting loot, depending on loot control settings. Saves any frustration that way :}
Bind on Pick-up is an issue in WoW as well. All members need to be wary of picking up an item in instances and such areas (perhaps some regular areas too, but I've never run into bind on pickup in a regular area) so that they do not inadvertantly pick up something another person can use, especially if they themselves cannot.
In this conversation of Loot, I would include discussions on gathering professions, i.e. mining, skinning, and herbalism. These should be divided amongst the party's gatherers in some fashion as well. Miners can take turns mining the same mine, or take every other mine (but don't cry foul if that other mine is higher level than yours). Who actually needs to mine what should be discussed as well. A Miner/blacksmith at lvl 50 of either would need a copper mine much more than someone with those professions at 225. Likewise, someone with 225 Blacksmithing can put mithril ore to much better use than someone with 50 blacksmithing (and 50 mining wouldn't be able to touch it anyway). These numbers are examples, not rules set in stone.
I'm not sure how many times one can gather herbs from the same plant, but similar guidelines can apply. Skinning can be a tradeoff.
Enchanting is unique in that it feeds off of items. Perhaps after a raid, if most of the "useless" items end up in the enchanter's hands (assuming they go to him/her rather than being sold), enchants can be given to the group, which would need a discussion on that awarding order as well.
I would also refine one thing on rolling: when it comes to melee weapons, melee characters should get preference. If a mace drops, and you have a Paladin and a Priest, both wielding maces, the Paladin should get first dibs, since he's more likely to have to hit something with it. If the damage and/or stats aren't better than his current weapon, the Priest gets it. This is assuming the mace holds regular stats (+5 to strength or similar), not only something like +10 to Healing Spells, in which case the Priest should get first dibs.
I'll leave it there and give a chance for responses. Take care. Eonwë
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LOOT
Jan 19, 2005 9:38:45 GMT -5
Post by arathorn on Jan 19, 2005 9:38:45 GMT -5
HA! Alatar, the same exact thing has happened to me many a time. Only yesterday a friend I play often with (actually you played with him as well, he was the Warlock Gnome when we first met ;D) He and I were doing 4 quests in one area and invited a rambunctious hunter who although skilled in battle couldn't wait to get to the next kill and seemed to have no peripheral vision whatsoever She would fly through a mob to get to a beast we needed after pointing it out on the minimap (having the skill to be able to see where they are) but pulling several beasts after her which we had to frantically attempt to aggro or heal her at our manas' mercy. After she left our group I needed a short nap to recuperate! <snortle!> I honestly don't know what the huge rush is for many of these players. It's not as if this game has an "end" it's the journey that I enjoy. Hectic begets frantic and all die in the end Nope, I completely agree with you on game strategy and what I enjoy in a quest. Our gameplay together was much more my style
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