Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323 
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Post by Eonwë on Apr 15, 2012 8:44:22 GMT -5
Preparing my post as the stand-in for Elrond, I felt a need to compile certain pieces of information, to ensure appropriate reactions for Elrond should more specific actions be necessary, and for Auros should that become necessary.
While I may be the only one for whom this is useful, I decided to share it anyway and save others similar work should it prove generally useful.
This post will focus on the Orc Sword, first, what is actually in the story (grouped by chapter and then reply #), and then, what was discussed about it in the time it appeared (by Meeting date). I've tried to focus only on the most important stuff, but in my haste I may have missed something that adds an important element to the understanding of the Orc Sword. Please feel free to add a reference to such.
Buckle up, this is a long ride.
Already used:
Scouting Ahead, Part 6
Reply 43: First appeared.
Reply 54: Orcish make.
Reply 64: Taken by Frali. "It was a sturdy weapon , slightly longer than what he was used to but feeling somehow lighter than he expected. The craftmanship was crude and simple, but of good quality and it had a sharp edge."
Reply 118: "He glanced at his newest weapon, the orc sword he had picked up at the river and slightly shivered as he discovered some barely visible runes on the hilt. For some reason they had been hidden hitherto, but he was not too sure whether it was of any meaning."
Reply 123: "Suddenly Meren shivered for a moment. Something unwholesome was nearby, and it was coming from Frali's vicinity. She looked more closely at the dwarf and noticed a different weapon from before. Was it an orc sword? It was! Feeling a bit sick, she reached out to put her hand nearer the sword. Yes, the bad smell--for that was how she thought of it--was coming from that sword. 'Frali, is that sword a new weapon? Where did you get it? There's something.....odd...about it.'"
Reply 124: "Frali looked at the crooked sword that hung at his hip.Slowly he reached for it and rubbed away some dust that had settled in some oddly shaped crevices."
Reply 127: "there are runes inscribed on it....and they are in Black Speech. To the degree I can read it, it looks like a curse"
Reply 128: "She shivered. 'Calion, it may have a tie to that thing possessing your brother. You are our tie to the monster since you are related. Can you perhaps gain a sense of direction from this? Maybe we can track the creature with it, after we report to Rivendell. I wonder if the darkness is also used to track minions, maybe alerting their leader of the whereabouts of its minions. Maybe it could be a key into his area.'"
Reply 129: "I think it may have, for he was oddly reluctant to let me see the weapon"
Reply 131: "There was something in them of their maker. Not the one who inscribed the runes, for a scout's sword was obviously produced in bulk, but the maker of the sorcery, the one who made the runes work."
Reply 132: "'This sword is older than the more prominent runes inscribed upon it. It is of the style used by the orcs of the northern Hithaeglir.... These runes look far too intricate to have been inscribed by an orc.'"
Reply 135: "'I fear that this sword has something to do with the strange new enemy that we will be seeking after we leave Rivendell, as it seems to have an effect on our party members as no other captured orcish weapon has had. It seems to find the wielder's racial fault and build on it. Perhaps in an orc officer that improves the fighting qualities desired of a driving cruelty, giving an advantage.'"
Angmar Bound, Chapter 1
Reply 13: "scimitar with unfamiliar new runes... "
Reply 16: "'As for the sword, the runes are not entirely familiar to me, but they appear to be based on the Firth, and apparently an elven variant rather than a dwarven one, which suggests considerable antiquity for the letters, at least. Like the speech of the Black Land, which uses (or shall I say abuses) Tengwar, these are used for a non-elven language, one I have never come across before, though the sound of it is certainly unpleasant.... The weapon itself is crude and apparently of recent make. It is the worse for me that I have had a good amount of contact with that fell thing, and I can say with some certainty that it has been ensorcelled in some way that is reminiscent of the miasma that comes from the south of our forest. It managed to depress most of us during the trip, despite my wrapping it well to block its emanations, and worse, it began to corrupt our dwarven companion, though he appears to be recovered. Nevertheless, we have been keeping it out of his sight and hands.'"
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Reply 16 in AB Ch 1 "The weapon itself is ... apparently of recent make" seems to contradict Reply 132 of SA Pt 6: "'This sword is older than the more prominent runes inscribed upon it."
Also, Meren previously identified (some of?) the runes on the sword as being in the Black Speech (reply 127 of SA Pt 6). I'm sure it can be worked with, but it seemed odd when weighed against "these are used for a non-elven language, one I have never come across before" (AB Ch 1, Reply 16) without a statement relating the two in some way (i.e., "I thought at first it was the Black Speech" or some such of a myriad options).
Less important, but more a specific lore-interest: Is "Firth" in that same reply supposed to be "Cirth"? I don't recall Firth being used in a manner referring to lettering, but I could be mistaken.
I don't *think* anything else poses consistency problems, but again I welcome scrutinity of the evidence and creativity in resolving any issues that may appear (or just plain editting where necessary) :}
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Discussed/Comments From Meetings
(Check the named meeting transcript for the full conversation)
May 15,2011:
Eonwe Valar: I'd also considered how Auros should react to bringing this thing to Rivendell, but if Elrond won't shrug at hiding Sauron's Ring for a couple of months while a course is decided, I don't think too much short of Morgoth's personal effects are going to concern him, hehe.
karakedi25: you have a point there...I was wondering if he'd say 'keep that thing out of my valley'
ArPharazonV: This sword, we got from a scout, or some lowly orc soldier or something.
ArPharazonV: It can't be too unique, then.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, one thing orcs *could* make well was weapons.
ArPharazonV: Aye, just thought I'd point it out, that it can't be as unique as the One Ring, or even as rare as the Rings of Power :-)
ArPharazonV: Otherwise, how would that one orc have had it?
ArPharazonV: Well, basically, "Hey, those swords they use to keep track of each other look neat. Maybe we should make something like that as well."
...
Eonwe Valar: I've got a passage this reminds me of, one sec...
Eonwe Valar: "'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can be read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin.'"
Eonwe Valar: I also think about the Balrog though, and how he perceived Gandalf and his shutting spell in Moria.
VardaValar1: The fire-making had surpassed the ability of an elf and a dwarf to make in those conditions. And the fire looked strange.
VardaValar1: True, one spell-caster seems to be aware of another's casting, at least nearby, and maybe a long time.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, that's the only way I can think of that such a thing would work in the story, is to send out some sort of power that's recognizable, but it doesn't seem it would be noticable over a large distance, and it would be dangerous because anyone else of sufficient power should be able to recognize it as well.
Eonwe Valar: *power and/or skill
...
Eonwe Valar: The weapons themselves would have to be somehow instilled with a power that could detect other powers, and discern another like itself.
Eonwe Valar: If the weapon reacts to orcs, it'll be lit up like a signal flare because it's being held by an orc.
karakedi25: Meren suggested that it was a curse of some sort
(Might as well just review that entire conversation there :})
July 31, 2011: (Interesting discussion on how the sword got to the orc we killed...)
Eonwe Valar: I would think this object shares more in common with a morgul-blade than with a Ring of Power, personally.
Eonwe Valar: Story-wise, Frali has been affected by it somehow, so take that as you will.Glorfindel seemed content to let Aragorn carry around a morgul-hilt, so long as he didn't handle it alot. Frali, on the other hand, has probably been holding the sword more than is healthy.
Eonwe Valar: So not *wanting* to hold it is probably not a notable reaction to the sword, other than to show a reaction for the story.
Eonwe Valar: i.e, it doesn't show the sword is *getting to* someone.
Eonwe Valar: Since Frali showed a reaction to it (as told him by Meren/Fainan), he deemed it was unsafe for Frali to continue with it. If others showed similar signs, he would probably take it himself.
VardaValar1: karakedi25: Meren thinks it would be more harmful to let frali near the sword.
Eonwe Valar: Also of note, going with the flow of the story, is that Auros had not *noticed* it until he held it, so take that for what you will as well.
October 16, 2011
ArPharazonV: They might even be tracking the sword. If it doesn't leave Rivendell, they might think we were still there while we've already moved up.
VardaValar1: Be nice to confuse them for a change!
Eonwe Valar: If it's destroyed in Rivendell, they really can't track it, hehe.
VardaValar1: It may go out of track as soon as it goes inside the elven-ring's influence.
VardaValar1: That is one strong ring.
ArPharazonV: That's true. But then they'd have to prepare for the worst. It might be to our advantage to have them thinking we were still there; to have it kept intact until we're some way north.
Eonwe Valar: There are no evil things in Rivendell to be drawn to it.
Eonwe Valar: Given enough distance, even Sauron doesn't know where his ring is.
Eonwe Valar: Gollum had to tell him it was in the Shire.
VardaValar1: The sword seemed to quit having an influence when we came into the area of Rivendell.
VardaValar1: That's an interesting thought. Sauron had to pull the One Ring to him by calling, but he didn't know where it was.
VardaValar1: The One Ring will be in Rivendell when we arrive, but gone before we leave.
VardaValar1: I was actually referring to Elrond's earlier.
VardaValar1: Maybe the sword will wake up near Frodo?
karakedi25: Would Vilya be able to cancel the affinity between the sword and the One Ring?
Eonwe Valar: I was pointing out, Phar, that I don't think any enemy could get close enough to Rivendell to be sure the sword was there.
VardaValar1: At a distance, it already has. But what about up close?
ArPharazonV: Well, I meant they might be tracking it from a distance, Eonwe. It seems to have some sort of tracking/communication runes attached, if I recall?
VardaValar1: The One Ring is present when we arrive, and Elrond may make sure we get it away from Frodo quickly.
Eonwe Valar: Vilya: Cancel out? I don't think so.
VardaValar1: er the sword
VardaValar1: We felt a change when we arrived in Rivendell, a peace. It's the area, but wasn't it also the sword being canceled out?
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I probably didn't do the actual conversations justice, but I tried to pick out the stuff that didn't already end up in the story or might be good to consider.
Anyway, I'll leave this post here. I'd like to examine the staff in a similar matter next, unless someone wants to beat me to it :} Anything else anyone thinks would be useful to compile the data about, please feel free to do so.
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Post by Eonwë on Apr 16, 2012 2:39:57 GMT -5
Next topic: The Staff.
Already Used
Scouting Ahead, Part 5
Reply 23: Appears. "At last the report came that Fainan had most wished to hear. 'After we learned of the strange movements of the enemy, a party checked towards the mountains northwest of here and overheard a group of orcs and humans. They were grumbling that the Witch-king had sent orders to his old minions, long-hidden deep in their old haunts of Angmar, to come out with morgul-knowledge and add to the horrors in Mirkwood. The woods were to be retaken by strange morgul-works that would include a fear and a slow lethalness into the creeping darkness. These would be controlled from a deepset Angmarin ruin by an artifact to which they referred to as what translates to 'the crooked staff', and in ancient times was called "the staff of unlight". A dwarf's understanding of stonework and deep places may be of great service.'
'We shall watch more closely for this new enemy and his special attacks now that we know the source. Also, we must send folk to infiltrate the depths of the Angmarin ruins to find the controlling staff. These people must be good with going underground and with stealth.'"
Scouting Ahead, Part 6
Reply 137: Perhaps it would even be a place with answers about the ruins, staff, and evil being that they were planning to confront, answers that might let them leave alive from the ruins of ancient Angmar.
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That's it all we have of the staff in the story. Not even a mention to Elrond yet, so let's not forget that somewhere in the story before we move on :}
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Discussion
July 13, 2008
VardaValar1: Ok, so figure that the sorcerer had to be the one that activated the Staff of Unlight probably using his lesser Ring.
VardaValar1: The base is supposed to be Angmar, so that works. And that is where the staff is, that Thranduil told us of.
May 10, 2009
VardaValar1: All of us Silvans in the group know that the darkness that is extra ghastly now is being influenced by something from the ruins in Angmar.
VardaValar1: Thranduil's advisors suspect the staff has something to do with it.
May 31, 2009
Eonwe Valar: The "staff-thingy" in strict sense is a "Mirkwood concern", until it's obvious it's spreading beyond those borders.
March 14, 2010
VardaValar1: We need to find that staff, there will be ruins and oodles of baddies.
March 21, 2010
ArPharazonV: Honestly, he has a name. We just don't need to know it, and while it might identify itself in the confrontation with Calaron, I'm not sure it needs to give its name except to say he's a lieutenant of Mordor. Or the Orcs of the North. Or Saruman, if that's where the Ring and staff came from.
October 6, 2011
VardaValar1: Elrond might want us just to scout, find weak points. We have fortune and find the power thingy/staff/ and destroy it.
ArPharazonV: Allright. I'm after my brother, who may or may not have a connection to the staff. Auros is going there for some reason not even Eonwe can remember. Fainan's going there to deal with the threat, mainly the staff. Meren is there to assist Fainan's goal. Ultimately, so is Frali.
December 18, 2011
AriehnV: Angmar Bound would fit ur idea of desciptive and would give a hint to some binding to the staff or even the binding of Calaron
VardaValar1: Angmar Bound is actually pretty good for the title. I wonder if we'll need to bind the staff some way before we can destroy it? That would be part of Meren's research.
VardaValar1: Desire for power can be a binder to the staff. So even if we remove the possessor, the brother may have to fight the desire for the power he could personally hold Hard when the desire for vengeance will be so strong in him.
VardaValar1: If he uses the staff himself, he becomes the new baddie. If he can reject it, the staff may fall apart or lose it's magic.
VardaValar1: Aiya Menel. :-) You get to help vote on a sequel title. :0
VardaValar1: or we can have it so that the staff must be destroyed, no circle thing.
December 25, 2011
VardaValar1: Don't forget that the staff is supposed to be very important, and the orc weapon should have some significance since we put so much writing time on it.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps he's after it. Perhaps he's found it. Perhaps we have to face it as well as him, and when we deal with him the staff is ours to deal with.
ArPharazonV: What we should probably find in Rivendell is not a clue to him, but to the staff. Whereabouts in Angmar it might be located, how to get through Angmar, what to expect there besides Calaron's forces (which are plenty again, whatever he could find in the mountains as he traveled to Angmar).
VardaValar1: The staff may have something to do with the possession. It gives a way past the usual defense of an elf maybe, to let this very strong evil being use the seeming and physicality?
VardaValar1: We don't have dozens of the possessed .Maybe because there's only one staff and only one strong enough to use it and do a possession?
ArPharazonV: Perhaps. But if we've established that it's a ring, and, for that matter, a minor Maia, it would not be very common in the first place, with or without staff required.
ArPharazonV: But if you want the staff to be involved, that's fine with me :-)
VardaValar1: The staff was mentioned in the story as part of what's going on. Trying to tie things together. If you have an idea, cool. :-)
ArPharazonV: Well, it *is* indeed possible that the staff was used as part of a ritual to prepare for possession, or to grant the possessor enough power to do so. But then why would it still be in Angmar, and not in the guy's possession already?
ArPharazonV: Instead, maybe, he is looking for the staff himself, with his own forces to accompany him (he'd have the home advantage) in order to sustain/strengthen his hold.
Eonwe Valar: The Ring grew more powerful as it grew closer to its forging-place.
ArPharazonV: So he's returning *with* the staff to Angmar in order to strengthen it. Maybe in order to stamp out what's left of Calaron.
Eonwe Valar: If we're assumign this staff is in a similar but lesser vein (as such would be made by Saruman with his incomplete knowledge of the process used to forge the Rings of Power) it could indeed be much less powerful elsewhere than near where it was forged/created.
VardaValar1: Aye, I had the lower level staff idea in mind, like Saruman's rings.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps the staff is bound to or led by a stationary artefact that's in Angmar and needs to be found before it can be strengthened.
ArPharazonV: Some sort of amplification device.
AriehnV: hmm i wonder .. if a "local" ally with a personal interest to diminish the dark power in angmar was to wanting to join the company and offer his or her services
Eonwe Valar: I would venture maybe the staff itself is bound to the Maia possessing Calaron, but that might be too similar to Sauron/The Ring for us to be using.
ArPharazonV: I'm worried that if it's just the proximation to some point in Angmar that counts, Calaron will be in Angmar long before we get there, and we'll be too late to stop whatever it is he's trying to do. Which works well enough for what I have in mind, but it would rather take the timing pressure off us.
ArPharazonV: If he actually has to locate a device, it might give us some time, and it would be a way to slip some route information to us in Rivendell if what we're actually looking for is not the staff, but the other device, which might be stationary and more easily found. And harder to be outdated than a mobile staff.
Eonwe Valar: Well, not to borrow heavily from D2, but the staff could easily require a headpiece or something.
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I could've sworn we had a couple more in-depth conversations on the staff, but this is apparently it.
Now that I've completed this one, I'm thinking an examination of the lesser ring, the sorcerer, and the whole possession thing might be useful, and then we'll be in a pretty good place to discuss this Sunday's brainstorming
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Post by Eonwë on Apr 29, 2012 10:53:30 GMT -5
The final info compilation (for now): the ring, the sorcer, possession.
Already Used
Scouting Ahead, Part 4
Reply #77: "The Orcs and animals bent to the ground, and the dark power had now come very close. A darkness darker than the usual night crept over them, and Calaron and the other Elves fell to their knees, trying to resist. Helvy, recognizing the darkness, howled loudly and broke into a run, through the cowering Orcs and disappearing in the forest. A voice spoke.
It was not a sound in the air, but a thought, penetrating Calaron's mind. A language akin to the Black Speech, yet somehow... more ancient. From the age of Morgoth, perhaps. And yet, he understood the words. It claimed him, said that it would use him to its own ends, for its own convenience, and as punishment for infiltrating its operations to the North. Calaron resisted, for no Elf would fall to corruption so easily. It replied that it admired his stubbornness and resilience, one of the reasons it had chosen him, but it had ways to achieve what it wanted, to crush his feä and take his body for its own. With a sudden force the shadow came upon Calaron, and rushed itself into the weak Elven body. He screamed and collapsed. And all was silent."
Scouting Ahead, Part 5
Reply #21: "In a clearing there lay an Elven commander, with a strange ring on his hand, clearly one of power but far below the Great 20. He had not worn the ring during battle, or put it on before he fell, but putting it on his finger from a small pocket during his sleep was the only physical action the Orcs had observed. For a small group of the creatures had surrounded the Elf and now gazed upon him suspiciously, for some reason resisting the urge to put a blade to the flesh and end his suffering. For while he looked fast asleep, Calaron's head was in turmoil.
He lay in terrible nightmares, as the dark spirit in his head sought to meld with and control his own fëa. He had conversed with the spirit, asking it many questions, but losing secrets and resistance of his own. It was strong-willed, and trained in the sorcery (or so some would call it) of Sauron as one of his old servants, trained to subdue minds under its own domination, take over their bodies, and thus extend its own life.
It told Calaron that it had planned to take over a noble Elf for quite some time, to bring chaos to the woodland realm, and sow discord between the Elves and their allies. And now its time had come, for it had planted the ring before him when Calaron was busy in the Northlands, though he had no memory of picking it up. But there the small thing had been, buried deep in his pocket, creating a link for the old sorcerer to complete the plan.
With some strength left Calaron defied the spirit, claiming his body as his own and seeking to leave the ring behind, but it had already gained too much control and instead forced it on his finger, thereby sealing the conquest. But it probed Calaron's fëa deeply, seeking some way to break his will completely. The stronger he resisted, the deeper it reached, ultimately finding a weak point. "A girl" it said. "It's always a girl."
Calaron opened his eyes, but it was not Calaron. The spirit, the sorcerer, was in control now, and its mind was set to its next goal. Asserting its control to the nearby Orcs, the group set off to the East, where Calaron mounted a large wolf and started his journey to the woodland realm."
Scouting Ahead, Part 6
Reply #75: "Two nights had passed since the events at Thranduil's Halls. Not long before the second nightfall, Calaron had arrived at the spot by the road by the means of a large wolf, bred in the service of the Orcs and their allies, and ready to bring its old master, now residing within an Elf, anywhere he wanted to go. The presence was getting stronger now, having dealt a great blow to Calaron's resistance at the Halls, and would be exerting full control were it not for the rain, seemingly washing its influence out of the very air, and dampening the effects. But it was confident that what remained of the Elf's spirit would not be able to fight back in any significant matter."
Reply #80: "Whether it was the sudden halt by Calion, or the wind swaying the arrow's course, or some attempt of resistance against the occupying sorcerer, didn't matter. The arrow had missed, and he cursed the missed opportunity. What remained of the Elf's spirit hadn't given up quite yet, and controlling the Elf's trained skills, like aiming an arrow, seemed harder than the sorcerer had hoped. As he took another arrow to his bow, he monitored the party's actions. Most of them raced further along the path, which was unfortunate, but predictable. The orcs and spiders would be on their trail, and the hastily constructed barricade would slow them down, at least."
Reply #85: "Maintaining the aura of shadow and silence around him with some effort, he focused his thoughts on the elf and withdrew them from elsewhere, releasing the spiders and orcs from their fear, who slowly and quietly began to move again. Deftly moving across the trees, masking his own sounds almost completely with his abilities, Calaron tracked the Avar through the canopy, sensing him almost as clear as he could see a bear in an open field, and released the arrow, aimed at the Elf's legs. The arrow would have struck true were it not for a branch blocking the way, not a foot behind the Elf. Estarion would be startled now, and Calaron prepared for a further chase, though the effort of keeping the shadow up would likely slow him down. While continuing to move after his prey, he notched another arrow."
Reply #112: "During the confrontation between the brothers, Meren had watched and listened carefully, attempting to learn as much as she could of the being that had possessed Calaron. She had no doubt that were they to reach Angmar, they would meet it again. As she organized her observations and thoughts and pondered where to search out more information in the few books she had been able to bring, she heard Estarion's shout. "
Discussed/Comments From Meetings
April 23, 2006
ArPharazonV: I know Calaron will basically be driven insane and possessed by this figure we have already faced from the north.. I had a love-story for him in mind, but I'll probably have her death involved in his final mental breakdown...
...
Eonwe Valar: The question I then ask is if Elves can be possessed :}
ArPharazonV: well, I guess so... he would resist a great deal at first
ArPharazonV: but he would weaken, and his will would be destroyed in this mental breakdown I mentioned
January 14, 2007
ArPharazonV: but except for the whole possession part, I haven't seen any complaints so far ;-)
VardaValar1: That's all that bothered me too. Maybe it's not actually possession but a confusing corruption by a touching spirit?
...
ArPharazonV: well, the spirit, in this case, actually inhabits the body... it could be a central factor in the way I have planned to resolve it, although I won't go there for a while yet
ArPharazonV: but the way I see it, as the Fea and the body seem to be seperated in some way
Eonwe Valar: Until the actual description of possession, I for some reason got the impression of something similar to the spell of bottomless dread that Morgoth puts on his followers (including Maeglin when he betrayed Gondolin).
...
ArPharazonV: is it possible to have 2 feas in the same body?
ArPharazonV: 1 trying to suppress the other?
VardaValar1: Houseless Ones
VardaValar1: Need to look up those elf spirits, could give a better clue.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure I've heard of even Morgoth doing that.
ArPharazonV: well, there has to be a first time, anyway...
VardaValar1: Possession is a bit much, but maybe we could work out something kind of like it.
ArPharazonV: I doubt Morgoth would do anything of the kind, I think he liked his own body too much :-)
VardaValar1: Something that looks like it but is really a corrupting influence that he needs to fight?
FinduilasV: something like mind control eh? I believe he had some power over the will of the people he wished to dominate
VardaValar1: Saruman's Voice power did that in a way.
ArPharazonV: what I need it to be for what I have planned out to work, is a: indeed a spirit seizing control of the body while repressing the mind, but b: the death of the body also being the defeat or at least the weakening of the evil spirit
FinduilasV: and could force them to do things they normally would not do .. like reporting news and such
ArPharazonV: when Calaron dies (eventually, I even have a scene planned out for this, but it will probably change over time) I want the spirit to be defeated too
VardaValar1: Hey, I remember something about that. Morgoth would take elves into captivity and send them back partly controlled, pretending to be escapees.
VardaValar1: Then the real escapees could not reintegrated into society because other elves thought they were like that too.
ArPharazonV: so would you have any suggestions as an alternative to this that could still do the trick?
ArPharazonV: we could make it a bit like Sauron and his Ring, as he poured power in the Ring, but when the Ring was destroyed, Sauron was defeated too
ArPharazonV: in this case, the spirit could have part of him inside Calaron influencing him, thus weakening/defeating him when Calaron dies as well
VardaValar1: Sweating that out. Just gave a few. Need to look up Houseless Ones, and/or that corruption Morgoth did to the captive elves sending them against Doriath
ArPharazonV: the death of the captive elves would not weaken Morgoth himself
ArPharazonV: which is what I'm looking for, in the end
VardaValar1: Aye, death would free the fea
VardaValar1: Orcs didn't fight the influence, so they could wind up with Morgoth in the Void. But the captive elves who presumably fought it might have gone to Valinor. Lot of ifs there.
Eonwe Valar: Let's say for a moment that an Elf could be possessed. What's to stop that spirit from fleeing the Elf body once the body is in danger?
VardaValar1: Have to be unexpected and sudden.
ArPharazonV: can the Elven fea willingly escape the body if it's being suppressed, or has almost no control over the body?
ArPharazonV: and what would happen to it?
Eonwe Valar: The Elven fea is the natural in habitant of the body.
VardaValar1: A fea can leave the body over great grief and go to Mandos
Eonwe Valar: *inhabitant
VardaValar1: but this means death of the body.
ArPharazonV: and what if another fea or spirit was to inhabit that body also, at the time?
ArPharazonV: would the body still die?
ArPharazonV: note that this second fea is now largely in control of the body?
VardaValar1: I would need to look up Houseless Ones and see if there's more on that.
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VardaValar1: We do have instances of influence so strong they are nearly possession.
VardaValar1: That might work.
...
ArPharazonV: but if the death of the body would not weaken the possessor, I would have to severely alter the story :-)
VardaValar1: They were normal elves to start with.
ArPharazonV: but yeah, we'll see what we can come up with
VardaValar1: The death of the body would probably oust any occupant.
VardaValar1: That part will probably work fine.
ArPharazonV: oust, yes, but weaken to the point of defeat?
VardaValar1: Isn't that the defeat, tossing him out of the body?
ArPharazonV: depends on how you look at it
VardaValar1: Fear/dread had a lot of effect even en masse.
ArPharazonV: if you would kill the Elves that Morgoth returned to spies, it would not be a weakening or defeat of Morgoth himself
ArPharazonV: he would just lose "minions"
VardaValar1: He couldn't make use of the body anymore. It's operating system would be gone. How's that? : )
VardaValar1: It was a weakening of his spy system.
VardaValar1: Mostly they didn't kill the elves, just didn't let them back into society.
VardaValar1: No kinslaying.
...
ArPharazonV: this shadow that now occupies/possesses/influences Calaron, we have faced before in the forest, and seems to be in command of quite an Orcish army
VardaValar1: If the body was important to the scheme, then it would be a defeat.
VardaValar1: Dol Guldur is the source of the shadow over Mirkwood.
VardaValar1: The Necromancer aka Sauron is the main source.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the questions to be answered are 1.) Is there a precedent in Tolkien, and 2.) If there is not, can we draw a conclusion in favor of it from Tolkien?
...
ArPharazonV: another spirit? another servant of Morgoth, hidden and biding its time?
ArPharazonV: this is not a wraith, I hope we have established this
VardaValar1: There were plenty of dark spirits, stronger than human wraiths.
VardaValar1: Maia of Morgoth, whom Sauron was the leader of.
ArPharazonV: and yet, whatever we have created, would no longer be an influence after we're done with it, because it does not show up in Lotr
VardaValar1: Maiar.
ArPharazonV: so we need to deal with it some way or another
ArPharazonV: interrupting its "scheme" is nice, but I was aiming for a more... shall we say... direct approach
VardaValar1: We need to be operating within the books best we can, aye, or we are just doing a separate fantasy not of Tolkien.
VardaValar1: Ok, so we have a powerful being working for Sauron, at this time not a wraith.
...
VardaValar1: They went back to Sauron for re-outfitting, including Fell Beasts.
VardaValar1: So what are we against?
VardaValar1: It could be worse than ringwraiths, as in Maiar.
ArPharazonV: in a way, parallel (sp?) to Sauron's story with his Ring... to increase his power he put much of his power in the Ring, but when the Ring was destroyed Sauron was diminished
FinduilasV: What were the Barrowwrights?
VardaValar1: It could be that they were beings who wore some of those lesser rings.
ArPharazonV: that was the story I was aiming to parallel with Calaron and the shadow
ArPharazonV: if the shadow possessed Calaron, and Calaron was killed, the shadow, the spirit, the Maia, would be diminished
VardaValar1: The Barrow wights were "evil spirits" (Maiar) who possessed the dead buried in the Barrows.
FinduilasV: ah there we go
ArPharazonV: now if possession is no longer an acceptable factor, I want to try to find an alternative that ends with the same consequence
VardaValar1: They were dead bodies.
VardaValar1: We can come up with a scenario that works.
ArPharazonV: being: if Calaron dies, the spirit itself would be diminished, and not just its plans
VardaValar1: Here's one, maybe.
VardaValar1: If it's a person of some race (you pick) using one of the lesser rings,
VardaValar1: Calaron may have the ring in his possession.
VardaValar1: It may have been planted on him.
...
ArPharazonV: could the shadow influence him, and to strengthen its control, put the ring on his finger?
VardaValar1: The thing could be in the ring and is therefore on Calaron.
...
ArPharazonV: what do you mean with "the thing could be in the ring", Varda?
VardaValar1: o well
VardaValar1: Maybe the ring pretty well ate/absorbed this lesser being than a king of Numenor.
VardaValar1: So he is in the ring more or less bodiless.
ArPharazonV: how would that affect our earlier encounters with it?
VardaValar1: He is trying to operate the body nearest him chosen for the purpose.
VardaValar1: I am making this up on the fly. Not canon. : )
ArPharazonV: of course, of course, but it's quite interesting
VardaValar1: Danke
VardaValar1: Maybe the ring was brought in during the underground spider run time.
VardaValar1: Taken to that base where Calaron is.
VardaValar1: It's inside something he has, maybe was attached to his belt like a rivet.
VardaValar1: Now if elves used piercings, he'd really be in trouble. ; )
ArPharazonV: I visualised the shadow as more ethereal, actually, as you might have read
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure how I'd change the post
ArPharazonV: an orc coming up with the item and putting it on Calaron's body?
VardaValar1: Once the ring is with Calaron, it can act the same way as the post.
VardaValar1: Nope. It's in something that Calaron picked up.
VardaValar1: Something he'd investigate.
VardaValar1: Then once it's on him, the ghostly presence can manifest.
VardaValar1: Right when it thinks Calaron is vulnerable, preoccupied.
ArPharazonV: in the battle, for example, yes
VardaValar1: As with an attack on the post.
VardaValar1: Calaron doesn't know about the ring.
VardaValar1: He knows nothing until the attack.
VardaValar1: It's just inside something else he has.
ArPharazonV: and yet, Calaron is not the only one aware of the spirit's presence, as the Orcs cower down and the wolf makes a run for it...
VardaValar1: Something planted for him to pick up.
ArPharazonV: you mean, on his scouting journey to the north, perhaps?
ArPharazonV: from which he returned the time we first met him?
VardaValar1: Sure. Once the thing begins manifesting, the ones recognizing it are going to be terrified.
VardaValar1: Up to you. That could be why it got him instead of another.
VardaValar1: It would not manifest until it found the time right.
VardaValar1: go for it.
ArPharazonV: during the battle, and the previous encounters, the spirit was in command of the Orcish forces
...
ArPharazonV: how would this do, if he was on a Ring that Calaron had in his possession?
ArPharazonV: he commanded them
ArPharazonV: he was what we encountered, no?
...
VardaValar1: that's a separate question.
ArPharazonV: it is, but if we need to tie this in, we'd better do it well :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, here's a little something from my farovite-to-quote section on Elves, "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" :}
VardaValar1: The thing didn't pour itself completely into the ring until it was time.
VardaValar1: It had some unpleasant falling apart body
VardaValar1: one that Calaron could become in time. Scary huh?
ArPharazonV: hmm... now we're on to something
VardaValar1: Calaron may have met it on his trip north?
ArPharazonV: so if it bided its time, only pouring itself in the ring when it wanted to manifest itself, commanding the orcs up to that point
ArPharazonV: it would explain the cowering/wavering orcs at the time of the manifesting
ArPharazonV: if at that point it relinquished command and poured itself into the ring which Calaron held
VardaValar1: Then the body it had before would go down, maybe in some spectacular or gruesome fashion, as it jumped ship completely.
Eonwe Valar: "It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly;
VardaValar1: Saruman's body had a nice effect.
Eonwe Valar: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent.
VardaValar1: Just have the shadowy form go into the ring as the body goes bad and you've got it.
VardaValar1: There you go. If Calaron leaves his body, the body won't survive.
Eonwe Valar: As the weight of the yearsm with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change.
VardaValar1: well, sorta not
ArPharazonV: allright, so let's just say: bad guy has Ring, and is partially poured into it.. he either plants it somewhere or loses it, and Calaron picks it up on his trip
Eonwe Valar: This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldali� on earth will have become as spirits invisble to mortal eyes,
Eonwe Valar: unless they will to be seen by some among Men whose minds they may enter directly." (There's a footnote for this, so will now look that up.)
VardaValar1: So the body becomes part of the spirit.
ArPharazonV: up to the Orcish attack on the outpost, bad guy is still in charge of the Orcish force
ArPharazonV: but during the final moments of the battle, bad guy decides to leave his own body, leaving the Orcs without command for a few precious moments, leaving them wavering
ArPharazonV: and pours himself completely into the Ring, manifesting
ArPharazonV: causing the Orcs to cower before he takes command again, and taking over Calaron through the ring
Eonwe Valar: Footnote just describes the paragraph at ending with "will to be seen."
ArPharazonV: would that work with our story, and with Tolkien?
ArPharazonV: if aforementioned bad guy was a sort of wraith?
VardaValar1: The orcs might see a dreadful spirit like a shadow around Calaron and recognize it.
...
VardaValar1: Might be wiggleable. : )
...
ArPharazonV: oh, one more thing, something I have in mind for the next part of the Calaron-story... he would be fighting this spirit for his own mind, trying to keep control, while the spirit probed his mind for a weakness
ArPharazonV: would that work?
ArPharazonV: I have an idea to break Calaron's will completely, but he would have to put up some resistance at first
VardaValar1: Sure. Just like Frodo and Boromir with the Ring picking on their minds.
VardaValar1: They both broke, just Boromir went down much faster.
VardaValar1: Calaron's ring is not nearly as strong though.
ArPharazonV: true, but the spirit inside it is quite more focused, since he doesn't have a body to pay attention to :-)
ArPharazonV: it attacks Calaron more directly instead of more subtle
VardaValar1: Handy. No meetings, no ringwraiths asking for suits and rides, etc.
VardaValar1: Maybe "inside" is the wrong word. "Attached" might be better.
VardaValar1: That gives you a bit more freedom.
ArPharazonV: in any case, if the spirit was trying to make Calaron do something he would protest to with all his will, and it succeeded... it could break Calaron's will quite permanently, no?
VardaValar1: If he's not a resilient type, maybe.
ArPharazonV: don't want to give any spoilers, but killing a loved one in this case...
VardaValar1: You pretty well told us you're killing him off. : )
ArPharazonV: yes
ArPharazonV: but in this case, to break him completely, he will cause Calaron to kill a loved one first
VardaValar1: Might show Calaron as being kind of brittle. Not much sense of humor, unable to have flexibility.
VardaValar1: If the thing is going to be in our plot, it might want Auros killed.
ArPharazonV: true, but we don't want Auros to die yet, do we? ;-)
...
Eonwe Valar: Book 10 looks like it might have stuff I missed in just looking over Laws a Customs.
Eonwe Valar: "House, The"-
Eonwe Valar: As an image of the body, the House and the Indweller, houseless (of the Dead), (of Melkor), housed, unhoused, rehoused, etc.
Eonwe Valar: I will now be examining those choices.
Eonwe Valar: "Manw� spoke to Eru, saying: 'Behold! an evil appears in Arda that we did not look for: the First-born Children, whom Thou madest immortal,
FinduilasV: it sounds very intrigueing i have to admit that
FinduilasV: now i get some idea :-)
Eonwe Valar: suffer now severence of spirit and body. Many of the f�anor of the Elves in Middle-Earth are now houseless; and even in Aman there is one. The houseless we summon to Aman, to keep them from the Darkness,
Eonwe Valar: and all who hear our voice abide here in waiting. What further is to be done?
Eonwe Valar: Is there no means by which their lives may be renewed, to follow the courses which Thou hast designed> And what of the bereaved who mourn those that have gone?
Eonwe Valar: This is mostly about the re-incarnation of Elves,..
VardaValar1: Sounds pertinent.
Eonwe Valar: Mostly about Eru granting the Valar the authority, and describing the terms. I'll summarize for expediency.
Eonwe Valar: (As much fun as it is to just quote :})
Eonwe Valar: Manw� was concerned he did not have the authority, Eru gave him the authority...
Eonwe Valar: They could remake the body of the Elf, or the f�a may be reborn as a child.
VardaValar1: Aye. That is Glorfindel remade.
VardaValar1: and the fea reborn is a basis for a story I wrote for the guild.
Eonwe Valar: The spirit retains a full imprint and memory of its former house.
Eonwe Valar: The f�a in its nakedness (not having a body) is open to the Valar to read.
Eonwe Valar: Using the imprint, the Valar can refashion the body before evil had befallen it..
Eonwe Valar: For rebirth, Eru screens those applicants himself :}
Eonwe Valar: The text later describes that Tolkien was coming to the point at which he abandoned rebirth as a mode for rehousing an Elven f�a.
...
Eonwe Valar: he'd been going over the difficulties of such at every level "(including practical and psychological)"
...
Eonwe Valar: Now examining "Of death and the Severence of F�a and Hroa"
VardaValar1: Sounds pertinent also.
Eonwe Valar: Rough summarization so far:
Eonwe Valar: (OR rather, summarization inasmuch as it affects our current conversation, with small quotes afterwards for reference)
Eonwe Valar: The older an Elf is, the less likely the body could be possessed by another, if it was ever possible.
VardaValar1: Calaron would need to be fairly young for an elf then.
Eonwe Valar: "according to unmarred nature no living incarnate may be without a f�a, nor without a hroa..."
...
Eonwe Valar: "Ifthen the hroa be estroyed, or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'... That is, it becomes painful for the f�a to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use
Eonwe Valar: so that the f�a departs from it,..."
Eonwe Valar: "The destruction of the hroa... was soon experience by the immortal Eldar, when they awoke in the marred and overshadowed realm of Arda. Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily;
Eonwe Valar: for their bodies were then less different from the bodies of Men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete.
Eonwe Valar: This command was, nonetheless, at all times greater than it has ever been among Men. from their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits.
Eonwe Valar: The f�ar of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny.
Eonwe Valar: Their f�ar were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far excelled the spirits of Men in power of that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease)
Eonwe Valar: , and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."
Eonwe Valar: "As ages passsed the dominance of their f�ar ever increased, consuming their bodies (as has been noted).The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it; for the body becomes at last, as it were,
Eonwe Valar: a mere memory held by the f�a; abd that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-Earth, so that Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed.
Eonwe Valar: Thus it is that the further we go back in the histories, the more often do we read of the death of the Elves of old, and in the days when the minds
Eonwe Valar: of the Eldalie were young and not yet fully awake death among them seemed to differ little from the death of Men."
Eonwe Valar: "As soon as they were disbodied they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death....If the obeyed tihs summons different opportunities lay before them..."
Eonwe Valar: "The f�a is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperitive; yet it may be refused...
Eonwe Valar: It (refusal) was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, aor his servant Sauron after him; for them the f�a unbodies would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to
Eonwe Valar: In like manner even of the Eldat some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth."
Eonwe Valar: "In later days", i.e. after the Third Age, it seems, more Elves who died in Middle-Earth refused the summons
Eonwe Valar: As such, they wander houseless.
Eonwe Valar: "unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it,>."
Eonwe Valar: Only those who had a body could operate in Arda, or commune with the Living.
...
Eonwe Valar: "It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied,
Eonwe Valar: though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them.
Eonwe Valar: For the Unbodies, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity.
Eonwe Valar: Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy.
Eonwe Valar: Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone.
Eonwe Valar: They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is follow.
Eonwe Valar: *folly
Eonwe Valar: To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one's own will is wickedness.
Eonwe Valar: Such practices are of Morgoth; and necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.
Eonwe Valar: Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos.
Eonwe Valar: The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies:
Eonwe Valar: there is also peril of destruction.
Eonwe Valar: For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the f�a from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured,
Eonwe Valar: even if it be not wrested from its rightful inhabitant.
Eonwe Valar: Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes.
Eonwe Valar: It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.
Eonwe Valar: [Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and this it is folly or wickedness to seek converse with them
Eonwe Valar: do not speak without reason.
Eonwe Valar: For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish the kinds?
Eonwe Valar: On the one hand, the Houseless, rebels at least against the Rulers (Valar), and maybe even deeper under the Shadow; on the other , the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortal, or seen only dimly and fitfully
Eonwe Valar: Yet the answer is not in truth difficult.
Eonwe Valar: Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. (wish I had this quote last week now :})
Eonwe Valar: Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers, (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodies or unbodied. Moreoeverthe Lingerers are not houseless, thought they may seem to be.
VardaValar1: (I tried to quote it last week, didn't get it quite right.)
Eonwe Valar: They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind.
Eonwe Valar: Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rearely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fiar.
Eonwe Valar: Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty. Of such he may have no fear,
Eonwe Valar: though he may feel awe of them.
Eonwe Valar: For the Houseless have no forms to reveal, and even if it were within their power (as some Men say) to counterfeit elvish forms, deluding the minds of Men with fantasies, such visions would be marred by the evil of their intent.
Eonwe Valar: For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit. So spoke Aelfwine.]
Eonwe Valar: So, we have precedence for possession. The question now is can it happen to an Elf?
Eonwe Valar: This example seems mostly to focus on Men communing with Elves who died and stayed in Middle-Earth well past the Third Age.
Eonwe Valar: Thought it does say that Sauron taught his servants how to do this, which means it's plausible during our time frame as well.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: Varda just mentioned a point, why could it take Calaron, and not Thranduil on a hunting trip for example... so a binding object could be necessary
VardaValar1: Some point of vulnerability not present elsewhere.
ArPharazonV: why did the Houseless One (or some disembodied and marred servant of Morgoth, perhaps) choose Calaron?
ArPharazonV: why did it succeed with Calaron?
VardaValar1: That's why the suggestion of a lesser ring. But it could be something else.
ArPharazonV: we don't even need to know what the object is yet... for all we know it was something he ate :-)
Eonwe Valar: It seems Calaron would have to be communing with the evil spirit in the first place.
VardaValar1: He might lose it. : )
VardaValar1: So something Calaron has with him could be causing him to commune unintentionally.
ArPharazonV: perhaps, yes
ArPharazonV: though he would not know it
VardaValar1: Something left by a necromancer?
ArPharazonV: perhaps... the spirit was already in a dying body
VardaValar1: We know that Sauron and the ringwraiths left Dol Guldur which continued to be hideously dangerous. Necromancer group?
ArPharazonV: and it left the object itself, before leaving it, so that it might find a suitable host again
ArPharazonV: and within a short time, too
VardaValar1: So the spirit could be a necromancer trained by Sauron who didn't want to die?
ArPharazonV: could be, yes
ArPharazonV: a necromancer in command of the orcish army... or it least in his spiritual form
ArPharazonV: the orcish army coming from the North, at least
ArPharazonV: must be quite a powerful one, then
VardaValar1: Or in his dying form. The orcs are terrified as they see him coming back in great power, as he was bad enough already.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the necromancer would hav eto have no body.
VardaValar1: They had to be powerful to give the elves so much trouble that it took Thranduil's people and Celeborn's to break them.
VardaValar1: Houseless elvish necromancer. heh
ArPharazonV: it would have to abandon its dying body first
ArPharazonV: oh, here's something...
ArPharazonV: "and even if it were within their power (as some Men say) to counterfeit elvish forms"
ArPharazonV: if this houseless necromancer shaped itself not as an Elvish form, but as a form of shadow and terror of sorts
VardaValar1: Got a point.
ArPharazonV: to place fear in his troops so that he could keep command of the Orcs
VardaValar1: Shadows tend to show a form matching intent.
ArPharazonV: and manifest itself as we have already seen, the shadow we encountered, the shadow coming on Calaron at the time of "possession" through the item
VardaValar1: The big shadow was the kind of shadow that has long been said to come out of Dol Guldur over Mirkwood, not a particular person.
VardaValar1: but he could have been in it.
ArPharazonV: if the dying necromancer placed the ring for Calaron to find, then left its dying body, assumed his shadowy form to keep in control of his forces, and from his manifestation sought to take Calaron at the time of battle...
ArPharazonV: could that work?
ArPharazonV: at that time it would break its "illusion", flow into the ring or whatever the item was we're talking about, and tried to take over Calaron from there?
ArPharazonV: "communing" through the object, and passing through it in the end?
VardaValar1: Sounds like it would fit your post without changing it.
ArPharazonV: exactly!
VardaValar1: Just don't say the whole shadow on Mirkwood is him, since it remains, and it could work
...
Eonwe Valar: Maybe the spirit piggy-backed on Helvy from when we slew the other wolves and then jumped at the chance to take over Calaron :}
VardaValar1: Ties back into the story just peachy.
VardaValar1: ohhh
VardaValar1: Egad Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: Depending on the relative power of the spirit, it may have been able to conceal itself even from Auros.
VardaValar1: Maybe the wolf having been under the influence before and now standing beside Calaron, gives the shadow an added aid unintentionally.
Eonwe Valar: Though maybe Auros had subconsciously suspected it, part of his hostility towards to wolf.
VardaValar1: This could be the "ring".
...
VardaValar1: Or the addition to the ring that is the reason the shadow didn't grab the body earlier, not enough power or ability to touch.
VardaValar1: Combination, very bad.
ArPharazonV: I don't think the spirit was hitch-hiking on Helvy, it would require too much tinkering... we know it has been commanding troops, we have felt its power come from the north, and Calaron felt it approaching the outpost...
ArPharazonV: but Helvy as a sort of catalyst for communication could work
Eonwe Valar: Here's another quote:
Eonwe Valar: "The f�ar of the Eldar, as Nienna hath said, cannot be broken or forced..*"
Eonwe Valar: "*By this is meant primarily the f�ar naked and unhoused. Living, the f�a can be deluded, and they can be dominated by fear (of one of great power such as Melkor) and so enslaved...."
ArPharazonV: anyway, what would I need to change in my post? we've been working this rather well to the point of where it almost fits, but there's still some details
ArPharazonV: 1: Not the whole shadow disappears into Calaron's body
ArPharazonV: 2: It flows into an object, a ring, or whatever, and not the body
ArPharazonV: 3: It's obviously a servant of Sauron, so the whole ancient dialect of black speech might not work... at first I had it a servant of Morgoth
ArPharazonV: anything else?
VardaValar1: Even Orcs use Black Speech. Anything sounding like erudite Black Speech would probably work.
ArPharazonV: "A language akin to the Black Speech, yet somehow... more ancient. From the age of Morgoth, perhaps."
ArPharazonV: I'll have to change that, but not sure how yet
VardaValar1: Depends. Phar. Black Speech is ancient.
VardaValar1: Introduced in the Second Age, died out, reintroduced in Third Age.
ArPharazonV: so would there not be some small changes of dialect with that reintroduction?
VardaValar1: Aye, so the Second Age could be the ancient version.
Orodreth V: They can't possibly do the same thing eve does with resources and territory without wrecking the LotR atmosphere.
ArPharazonV: the point I was trying to make was that it was older than the reintroduced Black Speech, as it may have come from a servant more directly under Morgoth
ArPharazonV: exactly, Varda
VardaValar1: Your guy speaks Third Age, but better than Orcs.
ArPharazonV: and that's why I need to change the post :-)
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I need to stop here for now, but I hope to pick up the digging around meeting time. Enjoy what's here so far.
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Eonwë
Vala, Council
Vala and proud member of the Valar Guild. A quarter century of Tolkien fun.
Posts: 1,323
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Post by Eonwë on Apr 30, 2012 6:41:53 GMT -5
Picking up in a second post, because that first one is already hideously long.
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December 28, 2008
VardaValar1: The brother let slip: The ancient evil rises as the Nazgul seem to have called for aid while they are abroad."
VardaValar1: It makes sense. If Dol Guldur is no longer being tenanted by the Nazgul, and they have to do nothing but Ring-hunt, their old work needs something to help.
VardaValar1: So they "turned on" the artifact in Angmar, maybe stirring up some of the shades too.
VardaValar1: The ones that are evil spirits that inhabit the dead of the Barrows are still around.
VardaValar1: Thus we have the spirit Calaron met? Or another?
VardaValar1: Calaron did manage to prevent the shot from being lethal.
VardaValar1: He is not as defeated as the spirit may think.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure if we ever decided if what came to Calaron was an actual spirit, or some dying sorceror/necromancer type character who used a lesser ring (not one of the 20) to transfer his fea
ArPharazonV: hmm, did I include the ring in my posts, or was I still planning to amend them?
VardaValar1: The spirit could easily have been a necromancer type?
VardaValar1: It says "spirit"
ArPharazonV: well, yes
...
ArPharazonV: "it had planted the ring" seems odd for something that's just spirit at the time
ArPharazonV: the old sorcerer also is an interesting mention
VardaValar1: ok, so it is an elf necromancer/sorceror?
VardaValar1: sorceror
VardaValar1: Minions could do it.
ArPharazonV: it was not an elf at the time, I'm inclined to think he was human or perhaps a particularly gifted orc
ArPharazonV: but it took over an elf recently ;-)
VardaValar1: It will make a difference in how it acts.
VardaValar1: And did the previous elf affect its behavior or just its information?
ArPharazonV: it was a minion of Sauron, a somewhat high officer in the northern lands, and it had possession of a lesser ring
ArPharazonV: as for "recently" I meant he took over Calaron, sorry
...
ArPharazonV: so before the whole possession-event at the western outpost, he was either a spirit, or a man/orc sending over his spirit
VardaValar1: The woods were to be retaken by strange morgul-works that would include a fear and a slow lethalness into the creeping darkness.
ArPharazonV: *nod* he could be one of these old minions
VardaValar1: These would be controlled from a deepset Angmarin ruin by an artifact to which they referred to as what translates to 'the crooked staff', and in ancient times was called "the staff of unlight"
VardaValar1: Your sorceror spirit would know all about that.
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March 14, 2010
ArPharazonV: in any case, it's a lesser ring, has some corrupting power, probably made by Saruman and imported the same way as the staff
March 21, 2010
ArPharazonV: I still referred him to Calaron as the person itself, body and all, since our little possesser doesn't have a name at this point. Nor do I think he ever will, except that I just called him a lieutenant of the Northern forces.
VardaValar1: Then maybe we should give our prime villain a name at some point. If he can't think of his own name, Calaron may have a wedge point.
November 21, 2010
Menelvagor Valar: what does a Tolkien sorcerer do?
Menelvagor Valar: What is it that Sauron did before he was cast down into the abyss along with the akhallabeth?
Menelvagor Valar: nothing fancy like a sithish push I am sure.
ArPharazonV: We don't know much. We know the aura of fear that the Nine carry with them, we know about the guardian at Cirith Ungol trying to prevent Sam from entering the tower.
VardaValar1: Dread. Shadow. Deceit.
December 19, 2010
Menelvagor Valar: Good thing Sauron never got his hands on this possessing thing :-D
ArPharazonV: I'm chalking it up to the fact that no mortal or elf body would be strong enough to hold him!
Eonwe Valar: It'd have to be someone foolish enough to volunteer his-or-herself, if I remember the section on the Houseless as well as I think I do.
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VardaValar1: Preservation was more or less elvish, but enhancing the natural powers of the possessor approached "magic".
October 16, 2011
ArPharazonV: Or if the possessee has taken on some aspect of the possessed's personality, he might simply like to toy with and confront Calion on a regular basis.
December 25, 2011
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure, from an in-character perspective, we'd find much about Calaron and his current situation in Elrond's library anyway. Maybe some vague references, but I can't imagine off the top of my head it's a frequent enough event to have exhaustive studies.
ArPharazonV: The possession? Perhaps. It is likely a well kept trade secret among Sauron's sorcerous "officers". Or maybe it's a relatively new experimental plan.
...
VardaValar1: The staff may have something to do with the possession. It gives a way past the usual defense of an elf maybe, to let this very strong evil being use the seeming and physicality?
VardaValar1: We don't have dozens of the possessed .Maybe because there's only one staff and only one strong enough to use it and do a possession?
VardaValar1: Long-lived elf body, strong, looks good. Natural target.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps. But if we've established that it's a ring, and, for that matter, a minor Maia, it would not be very common in the first place, with or without staff required.
...
Eonwe Valar: I would venture maybe the staff itself is bound to the Maia possessing Calaron, but that might be too similar to Sauron/The Ring for us to be using.
February 5th, 2012
Eonwe Valar: "But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods).
Eonwe Valar: The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination."
April 15th, 2012
April 22nd, 2012
Rather than quote any of these here, Since they're the newest, biggest take on all this, I encourage any of us who weren't there (and even those of us who were if we need a refresher) to go ahead and read the whole thing and move forward from there.
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OK, that *should* conclude the examination of these items of the RP. I hope this will help us all have a clearer picture of these subjects and what we've used so far, and allow for discussion on what we'd like to lay down more solidly about them for the future.
If any of you think we need to examine anything else more closely, feel free to mention it and drag up the references you can find. The research can be less painful than it looks :}
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