In research of my coming mosaic picture of Veantur sailing Entulasse and reaching ME I think I remember reading, somewhere, something in likeness of "people looking out upon sea saw the black sails of the Numenorians.. etc etc and they were scared not knowing..etc etc" The question are the black sails. Did they have black sails, is it my imagination or have I read it somewhere obscure?. I can not remember where I read this. It is not in the story of Veantur or the notes concerned this. Might be a note to a note hidden somewhere in HoME telling of something quite different and just as reference to something else.
Any help is appriciated. I am pretty sure I have read it. But where?
Elatan Powered by Iluvatar, kept on the road by Manwe. Keeper of the Annals of Arda www.annalsofarda.dk
Well, there's my post- and email-signature below, of course, which is taken directly from the Akallabeth. It's the closest thing I can think of going by your post, but the sails are described as scarlet, and it's not directly related to Veantur. Black sails sound kinda familiar though, so looking further.
Later on in the Akallabeth, gathering the fleets on the west of Numenor, there is: "In that time the fleets of the Númenóreans darkened the sea upon the west of the land, and they were like an archipelago of a thousand isles; their masts were as a forest upon the mountains, and their sails like a brooding cloud; and their banners were golden and black." Brooding cloud, banners black, it does seem black was a bigger part of the ships now. This is further supported by the use of black sails in Umbar, directly descended from the Black Numenorean tradition.
Going back in history, though, to the time of Veantur, is more tricky. If the above passages do show a progression, it is more likely that the sails would not yet contain black in Veantur's time. But 3000 years of history is a long time, and colors and symbols may change, even in one kingdom. There are a few more sources I can think of, which I shall consult now.
Aldarion and Erendis, UT, talks about Aldarion's first journey over the sea. When returning to Numenor, the description of the ship Númerrámar contains "her golden sails reddened in the sunset." This was over 100 years after Veantur's journey (who, in fact, joined Aldarion, his grandson, on this particular journey; it was his ship originally). Other ships are named in this story, but as far as I can see, no sails get a description.
And then there is the story of Tal-Elmar. The "days of the dark kings", describing dark tombs and cruelty of the men of the sea, yet the Numenoreans appear reverent of the Valar and friendly of the Eldar. Three ships with white sails and one with black sails, the black-sailed with silver stars of Elbereth. And at the end, the Numenoreans reveal their intentions to slay the locals and build their own homes there. So there appears some contradiction concerning the time it takes place, but most likely in the later parts of the Second Age, with no bearing on Veantur.
This is all I can find right now, but there are undoubtedly passages that I've missed. Draw your own conclusions, it's your art; but Aldarion's golden sails seem closest chronologically, and both ships originally had the same owner.
"And men saw his sails coming up out of the sunset, dyed as with scarlet and gleaming with red and gold, and fear fell upon the dwellers by the coasts, and they fled far away." -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion
Thanks for your quick input, it has given me some nice directions and idears to search for not alone appearance of their sails but their ships too.
I reread ofcause parts of UT, mainly Aldarion and Erendis and the notes for it as I thought that would be the obvious place to start. In the story of Veantur nothing is said of black sails. But today I found a little bit but it certainly places black sails, as you mention, in a future long past Veantur. In The Lost Road (HoME 5) first version of Fall of Numenor §6 the armament assailing Valinor is described "..masts like a forest of mountain-trees, and their banners like the streamers of a thunderstorm, and their sails were black..." You quoted it too but in the final version where the black sails have vanished and it gave me the idear of looking in the older versions This could well be the spot I remember.
And later in the final version (same book §3) telling about Numenors earlier history how they became great mariners and reached the shores of ME they "..appeared among the wild men and filled them with wonder and dismay and some esteemed them to be Gods or son of the Gods out of the West and the men of ME feared them, for they were under the shadow of Morgoth and believed the Gods to be terrible and cruel.."
This one is possible another part of what I recollect but mix together into one but the search goes on and further bits and parts are most welcome
"Then there was a pause, and after it many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved. The mist cleared and he saw a sight which he had never seen before but knew at once: the Sea. Darkness fell. The sea rose and raged in a great storm. Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of clouds, the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West. Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a white fortress with seven towers. And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun. A smoke as of fire and battle arose, and again the sun went down in a burning red that faded into a grey mist; and into the mist of a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights. It vanished, and Frodo sighed and prepared to draw away."
Thought I'd provide that part of "The Mirror of Galadriel" for reference.
The part about the ship with the black sails strikes me more as showing Aragorn's arrival on the corsairs' ships than belonging to Isildur's/Elendil's/Anarion's ships coming from Numenor, although I will grant the "then again.." could be read to attribute the named qualities to the former ship.
"There Iluvatar permitted the Valar to maintain upon the Earth an abiding place, a memorial of that which might have been if Morgoth had not cast his shadow upon the world." -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion
"When you can do what you want, you will be who you are." -John Hagee (first person I heard use it anyway)